What’s so uncool about cool churches?

Posted in Millennials, Relevant Church by

Unintended Consequences: How the “relevant” church and segregating youth is killing Christianity.

I recently spent six-months doing a rotation as a hospital chaplain. One day I received a page (Yes, hospitals actually still use pagers). Chaplains are generally called to the rooms of people who look ill: People gray with kidney disease, or yellow with liver failure, discouraged amputees, nervous cancer patients. In this room, however, was a strikingly attractive 23 year-old young lady sitting up cheerfully in the hospital bed, holding her infant daughter and chatting with family and friends.

Confused, I stepped outside and asked her nurse, “Why did I get paged to her room?”

“Oh, she looks fabulous. She also feels great and is asking to go home,” the nurse said.

“…And you are calling me because?” I asked in confusion.

The nurse looked me directly in the eye and said: “Because we will be disconnecting her from life support in three days and you will be doing her funeral in four.”

The young lady had taken too much Tylenol. She looked and acted fine. She even felt fine, but she was in full-blown liver failure. She was dying and couldn’t bring herself to accept the diagnosis.

Today I have the sense that we are at the same place in the church. The church may look healthy on the outside, but it has swallowed the fatal pills. The evidence is stacking up: the church is dying and, for the most part, we are refusing the diagnosis.

What evidence? Take a gander at these two shocking items:

1. 20-30 year olds attend church at 1/2 the rate of their parents and ¼ the rate of their grandparents. Think about the implication for those of us in youth ministry: Thousands of us have invested our lives in reproducing faith in the next generation and the group we were tasked with reaching left the church when they left us.

2. 61% of churched high school students graduate and never go back! (Time Magazine, 2009) Even worse: 78%  to 88% of those in youth programs today will leave church, most to never return. (Lifeway, 2010) Please read those last two statistics again. Ask yourself why attending a church with nothing seems to be more effective at retaining youth than our youth programs.

We look at our youth group now and we feel good. But the youth group of today is the church of tomorrow, and study after study after study suggests that what we are building for the future is…

…empty churches.

We build big groups and count “decisions for Christ,” but the Great Commission is not to get kids to make decisions for Jesus but to make disciples for Him. We all want to make Christians for life, not just for high school. We have invested heavily in youth ministry with our lives specifically in order engage youth in the church. Why do we have such a low return on our investment?

What are we doing in our Youth Ministries that might be making people less likely to attend church as an adult?

What is the “pill” we have overdosed on? I believe it is “preference.” We have embraced the idea of market-driven youth ministry. Unfortunately, giving people what they “prefer” is a road, that once you go down it, has no end. Tim Elmore in his 2010 book entitled Generation iY calls this “the overindulged Generation.” They ask for more and more, and we give it to them. And more and more the power of God is substituted for market-driven experience. In an effort to give people something “attractive” and “relevant” we embraced novel new methods in youth ministry, that 20 years later are having a powerful shaping effect on the entire church. Here are the marks of being market-driven; Which are hallmarks of your ministry?

  1. Segregation. We bought into the idea that youth should be segregated from the family and the rest of the church. It started with youth rooms, and then we moved to “youth services.” We ghettoized our children! (After all, we are cooler than the older people in “big church”. And parents? Who wants their parents in their youth group?) Be honest: Have you ever thought you know more than your your student’s parents? Have you ever thought your youth group was cooler than “big church”?
  2. Big = effective. Big is (by definition) program driven: Less personal, lower commitment; a cultural and social thing as much as a spiritual thing. Are those the values that we actually hold?
  3. More programs attended = stronger disciples. The inventers of this idea, Willow Creek, in suburban Chicago, publically repudiated this several years ago. They discovered that there was no correlation between the number of meetings attended and people’s spiritual maturity. They learned the lesson. Will we?
  4. Christian replacementism. We developed a Christian version of everything the world offers: Christian bands, novels, schools, soccer leagues, t-shirts. We created the perfect Christian bubble.
  5. Cultural “relevance” over transformation.We imitated our culture’s most successful gathering places in an effort to be “relevant.” Reflect on the Sunday “experience” at most Big-box churches:
    1. Concert hall (worship)
    2. Comedy club (sermon)
    3. Coffee house (foyer)

And what about Transformation? Is that not missing from these models? Where is a sense of the holy?

6. Professionalization. If we do know an unbeliever, we don’t need to share Christ with them, we have pastors to do that. We invite them to something… to an “inviter” event… we invite them to our “Christian” subculture.

7. “McDonald’s-ization” vs. Contextualization:  It is no longer our own vision and passion. We purchase it as a package from today’s biggest going mega-church. It is almost like a “franchise fee” from Saddleback or The Resurgence.

8. Attractional over missional. When our greatest value is butts in pews we embrace attractional models. Rather than embrace Paul’s Ephesians 4 model in which ministry gifts are given by God to “equip the saints” we have developed a top-down hierarchy aimed at filling buildings. This leaves us with Sunday “church” an experience for the unchurched, with God-centered worship of the Almighty relegated to the periphery and leading of the body of Christ to greater spiritual power and sanctification to untrained small group leaders.

Does not all of this work together as a package to leave us with churches full of empty people?

Here is an example: Your church. Does it look like this?

If you look closely, you will see the photo on the right is of a nightclub, rather than a church. Can you see what I mean about “relevance” and the clean Christian version of what the world offers? Your youth room is a pretty good indicator of what your church will look like 15 years from now. Because of the principle “What you win them with, you win them to,” your students today will expect their adult church to look like your youth room.

In summary, “Market Driven” youth ministry gave students a youth group that looks like them, does activities they prefer, sings songs they like, and preaches on subjects they are interested in. It is a ministry of preference. And, with their feet, young adults are saying…

…“Bye-bye.”

What might we do instead? The opposite of giving people what they want is to give them what they need. The beauty is that Christianity already knows how to do this.

Once upon a time our faith thrived in a non-Christian empire. It took less than 300 years for 11 scared dudes to take over the most powerful empire the world had ever seen. How did they do it? Where we have opted for a relevant, homogenously grouped, segregated, attractional professionalized model; the early church did it with a  multi-ethnic, multi-social class, seeker INsensitive church. Worship was filled with sacrament and symbol. It engaged the believing community in the Christian narrative. This worship was so God-directed and insider-shaping that in the early church non-Christians were asked to leave the building before communion! With what effect? From that fellowship of the transformed, the church went out to the highways and byways loving and serving the least, last and lost. In that body of Christ, Christians shared their faith with Romans 1:16 boldness, served the poor with abandon, fed widows and took orphans into their homes. The world noticed. We went to them in love rather than invited them to our event.

The beauty of where we are today is that, unlike the girl in the hospital bed, our fatal pill could still be rejected. It is not too late. We can leave the culture-centered models we have been following for more Christ-centered ones. More ancient ones. More rooted ones. And the most beautiful thing is that students actually enjoy them.

So many have commented on this post in the last month that I did a follow-up: O Yeah! And other things I wish I would have said on “Cool Church.”

1,209 thoughts on “What’s so uncool about cool churches?”

  1. More than ten years ago I read John S. Spong’s, “Why Christianity Must Change or Die.” When I finished it all I could do is sit back and think to myself, “I’m not the only one.” I recommend it, and then the task is to find a church which is open to and able to change. There are some around.

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    • That’s the opposite of what’s being said here. Spong is an absolute heretic on practically every level, and I would only recommend you read him to see get an idea of what NOT to do.

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  2. An interesting article, but I feel like there are some things that are being missed here:

    If there weren’t “youth ministries” then the church might be ENTIRELY gone today. While the statistics are very gruesome, you have to remember that maybe youth ministries is one of the only things keeping the church alive today. No offense, but I have been to many youth conventions and they have only increased my faith and have always made me a stronger Christian at the end of them. Saying that “youth” ministries is destroying the church is actually… absurd.

    The problem I’m also seeing here is: Adults not understanding the “youth”. As you mentioned in the article that putting the youth in a “ghetto” isn’t working, I feel like that is something you don’t understand because you aren’t a youth. I can say I have seen hundreds of “youth” come to Christ because of youth ministries… how many adults have I seen come to Christ? A handful. I think the problem isn’t with the youth, the problem is that adults did not understand the LAST generation. Youth ministries have been a major blessing in my life and in the lives of others.

    Big, flashy, concert halls have also brought a couple of my friends to Christ. Why? Because you are forgetting what everyone sees the Church as. People still think Church is all about being… bored. However, the Bible tells us to be on fire for Christ. There is ENERGY in being a Christian, and I feel like that is what the youth has. When my friends who weren’t Christians see a youth convention, they say “Wow, being a Christian is a lot more interesting than I thought.”.

    Now, we can’t solely focus on lights over substance or show over material, BUT relevance is incredibly important. The Bible is entirely relevant. Everything in the Bible is relevant to our modern time. If the Bible wasn’t relevant, I don’t think anyone would follow it. The Church NEEDS to be relevant and I think that is what was/is harming the Church. People look at the Church and say “That doesn’t relate to me.” But in youth ministries I see many friends and atheists realize that the Church does in fact relate to modern times.

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    • The problem is not one of understanding by other adults, it is due mostly to almost zero discipleship by the parents of their children. Youth groups are a recent invention in Christian history. Seems the church of centuries past had no problem seeing young members discipled to Christ without segregating them from the adults.

      The Church doesn’t need to be relevant because as long as it preaches the unfiltered Gospel it always will be. It is when we model our churches and ministries on things other than Scripture that we disregard the sufficiency of God’s Word and elevate the paradigms and programs of man to the authoritative level reserved solely for that which is God-breathed.

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      • It isn’t just youth groups that are new it is “youth” in general. When my grandmother was my son’s age (15) she was married and had her first child. When her mother was his age she and her husband had a farm and a coupe kids. We have created a group of people we as a society treat as children but they are adults. They whole idea of the teenage years is new and we have to figure out who and what they are just like they do.

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        • Good point, Michelle. However, are they adults if they are living with parents and parents are still supporting them? The definition of adult was “financially independent.”

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  3. Look at the book of Acts to find out what the early Christian Church did: Acts 2:42
    They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
    Some churches follow this pattern on Sundays which meets the needs of people in all ways, spiritual, social-emotional, physical: Divine Service (“apostles’ teaching” “breaking of bread” “prayer”) followed by sharing a meal together (“breaking of bread” – “fellowship”).

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    • Hello mkrittmeyer,
      Thanks for that. We follow that pattern ourselves. I blogged about liturgy a few times last December (How we worship and does it matter)…and on the abuse of it (Clergy Gone Wild). Sacrament is in every New Testament writer. The pattern is in simple form in Luke and Acts and the complete liturgy is laid out as it is done today, point by point by Justin Martyr in his First Apology in 150. It is interesting that Justin describes this as if it is how Christians have always worshipped in 150. 150 is as close to the close of the canon of the NT (John 90ish) as the close of the canon is to Jesus.

      Thank you for opening the door for me to talk about something that blesses me.

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  4. In our world
    Divorce now tears
    The heart and soul of home
    Gay lifestyle permeates the world
    One’s self is on the throne

    I do what I decide to do
    I do what I think best
    I don’t choose God
    I choose myself
    To no one I confess

    A common theme throughout our world
    Has left a price to pay
    Our children suffer greatest
    For the lifestyle of our day

    Reply

    • Jan, I am sorry to respond with only critical words, but using divorce and Gay lifestyle in the way you have shows total misunderstanding and arrogance which is certainly not Christ-like in spirit. It is not divorce that wrecks children, but divorced parents who don’t separate in healthy ways, following counseling and prayer. Divorce is ending a relationship that is already dead. Children survive divorce and are healthy when their parents have processed their brokenness and continue to love their children separately. Gayness is not a lifestyle it is an orientation, and the longer we consider it simply chosen behavior, the longer love eludes individuals and the church. Gay persons are no more selfish than heterosexuals, perhaps much less.
      You use the word ‘I’ in stanza two, but I sense you mean others, not you? I don’t hear any words of personal confession or complicity in the world’s brokenness?

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      • Hello Jan and John, I generally let threads go off the rails a bit for the sake of conversation, but this one is threatening to veer into a completely different topic. Let’s not make a turn into discussing divorce and sexuality. You will both see those topics of symptomatic of issues that you want to address, but the polarizing nature of them will derail this particular conversation on the nature of the church. There are scads of other places to discuss divorce and sexuality. Thank you!

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  5. I grew up in various churches (I am a pastors daughter) that had all sorts of youth and kids programs, but my only memories from those are having fun with my friends. My learning came from the one church where there was no kids service and I sat through the sermons. My awakening came when I was 20. I still attended church every Sunday (my dad preached in a different province at this time) but thought I could make my own decisions, even though I knew they were wrong. But I thought I was ok because I didn’t drink or do drugs or party. But I found myself pregnant at 20 and discovered that my church, who preached unconditional love and acceptance, didn’t really follow through on their words. Every Sunday, less and less people talked to me and more and more criticized and judged. I am a pastors daughter, I knew what I did was wrong, what I needed was for people to love and pray. I moved to a new town and discovered a wonderful church where people know my story and still accept me. They are loving and accepting of people, but the sermons are still clear on what is sin.
    I think that kids churches and sunday schools are vital for the very young, but I think they need to be more about teaching and less about having fun. Craft time is for at home. My daughter is now 4 and attends a kids sunday school, but sits through the sermons with me. After the sermon I answer any questions she may have that confused her during the sermon.
    My feelings on a lot of the churches in my area today is that they are either way too judgmental, or way too accepting of sin in Christians, for fear of offending someone or not being “politically correct”. I believe we need to accept all people, but still make it clear on what is sin and what isn’t, and what a Christian should really be like, in order for our actions and life styles to attract the non-believers.

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    • Hi Rachelle, I am glad you found a church home that could accept you…a sinner like every other church member who has ever lived. I am also glad you are giving a big-girl faith to your daughter. She is blessed to have you for a mom.

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    • Oh you are SO RIGHT in what you share Michelle! Thanks and Gods blessings to you as you raise YOUR kids to believe and trust Jesus as their Lord and Savior and learn the TRUTH of Gods word in a world that is always trying to change His word!

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  6. The young adults of today see the disconnect between church and the teachings of Jesus. Make no mistake.. Eyes are watching when church members curse out the sales clerk, fail to tip the waitress, cheat on their taxes, cheat on their spouse, engage in unscrupulous business practices, ignore the homeless, rant against compassionate programs for the poor. Today’s young adults are looking for real Christianity which is rooted and founded in tbe teachings of Jesus not a bunch of rules and regulations. Jesus spent most of his time on earth healing the sick, ministering to the outcasts ans telling stories about how we should treat others. Today’s churches are a cesspool of hate and politics. Don’t dare question anything or you will be branded an unbeliever. Today’s youth want intelligent dialogue about the Bible combined with faith in action not words. Church youth groups have become country clubs where only those that fit the mold are allowed. Youth groups are full of bullies … Some youth and some leaders. Wake up folks.. It is not about the music.

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    • N Armstrong – I agree with part of your statement. We seem to be lumping all the types and styles of churches in the same pot. There is a great disconnect between people in the church who go through tradition and those who go because of their love for God and their desire to worship Him through their Savior Jesus Christ.

      As a former youth pastor, Christian school teacher, father, and now pastor of a local congregation – I think that most Christians don’t see the need for church. Parents are more concerned about having their child/teen be in traveling sports teams, than having a commitment to worshiping corporately with a local church.

      They don’t take the time to have family devotions. Parents seem overwhelmed by the weight of the world, finances, relationships, stress from employers. People won’t take time to dig into Scriptures – they want a quick 5 minute devotional with a printed prayer to read – then it’s on to the computer or TV for several hours of enjoyment and relaxation.

      They aren’t modeling a committed life to Jesus. You wrote: Eyes are watching when church members curse out the sales clerk, fail to tip the waitress, cheat on their taxes, cheat on their spouse, engage in unscrupulous business practices, ignore the homeless, rant against compassionate programs for the poor. I would suggest that their parents are guilty of these as much as the “church.”

      The church has responded with many ideas, programs, and activities. These are well meaning- but will come up empty.

      We need not just to go sit in a church – but to be in the Word daily – hammering out the stuff of life in view of God’s Word. We need to take the Word and daily apply it – Micah 6:8; James 1:27; 1 Corinthians 13; are just a sample.

      Lastly, I think the church isn’t growing because we don’t pray as a personal spiritual discipline. Praying for the Holy Spirit to reveal to us our own shortcomings. Praying for those who are lost: family members, neighbors, co-workers, barber, bank tellers, sales clerk. Praying for God to bring glory to Himself not matter what I think of the music, the message for the day, the temperature of the auditorium, the smell of the person two rows in front of me.

      I don’t claim to have “the answer” – but after 30+ years in various ministries and vocations – I think these areas define the decline of the church.

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    • Your observation, “Today’s churches are a cesspool of hate and politics,” has not been my experience. While I hear some narrow-mindedness and some overt prejudice in our congregation, the vast majority of people who gather for worship and serve in our ministries are unselfish, God-loving, faithful disciples of Christ. When politics are discussed in our church, it is always about important issues, and a great deal of respect is shown in most conversations. I am just wondering which church or congregation(s) you are referring to when speaking of a cesspool?

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    • I want to respond to your belief, “Today’s young adults are looking for real Christianity which is rooted and founded in the teachings of Jesus not a bunch of rules and regulations.” Further, you say, ” The young adults of today see the disconnect between church and the teachings of Jesus.”

      It seems to me that some young people are observing the church, in all its brokenness, and criticizing it for not being what it should be. Well, welcome to humanity and, by the way, you (youth) are part of that brokenness and contribute to the world’s imperfection. Adults cannot promise, or even think they might achieve, perfection in their daily walks, but they can live and speak authenticity through honesty and striving. Real Christianity is not perfect people living perfect lives in a soon-to-be-realized perfect world. We adults need to live and share with the next generation what it means to be broken, forgiven, and hopeful as we live today and move into tomorrow. Is there a disconnect between church and the teachings of Jesus ? Of course. Now let’s get on with following Jesus into more faithful discipleship, youth and adults, together.

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  7. in someway we dont perhaps dont understand” where two or tree are GATHERED TO MY NAME there I AM IN THE MIDST” So when we gather the KING of KINGS, Our GREAT HIGH PRIEST, The HEAD OF THE CHURCH,JESUS CHRIST, is right there with us,Thats the highest authority we have.When we believe we receive gifts,and become priests to our GOD AND FATHER. In the old testament the priests brought a sacrifice, but we now bring our worship and thanks to Lord Jesus for what he did for us.He was sacrificed for us.Thus we remember Him by breaking the bread and drinking the wine.

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  9. …a tangential anecdote …. grew up in a Lutheran church and my mom was sharp enough to decide that the best way to manage a couple of twitchy boys was not to hide in the back row where we could be whisked out if we misbehaved, but to have the family sit in the very front row, so that my brother and I could see and hear what was going on. I don’t recall finding everything in the very traditional service fascinating, but we did learn to participate, didn’t dread going to church, I learned what hymns and liturgical stuff I liked and didn’t like, and I even listened to the sermons because I was sitting about ten feet in front of the pulpit. What has startled me recently is hearing many stories, some of them shared here, about segregating worship by age, and congregations that are stratified or isolated by age groups, and realizing that by some inexplicable blessing, in the church I’m at now all the ages from preschool to the aged are engaged with each other and worship together and enjoy each other … and that this is not necessarily the norm. It might have something to do with our congregation supporting a large day school, but then again, the school has also been a source of division in the past, so I’m just going to have to stick with realizing it’s a blessing of God.

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  10. If youth aren’t segregated into a separate from from big church, they are segregated inside big church on their own pew/s.

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    • but at least they are still getting the big church preaching of the word, and hopefully that is full of doctrine and Biblical truth which also hopefully by their teen age years they have the mental capacity to understand and reason through and learn to be convicted by.

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  11. If we really want to know why young adults leave the church in droves, maybe we should ask them. I started informally polling young adults about their reasons for leaving church. It was an eye opening experience. Today’s young adults are not buying what is being sold. We call ourselves followers of Christ and yet too often a message of hate comes from the pulpit. Today’s youth want real dialogue about the Bible and they want to see faith in action. Jesus healed the sick, fed the hungry, ministered to the outcast. Maybe if we were to go and do likewise, young people would notice. Maybe we should spend more time worrying about our own sin and less time judging others. Young adults are sick of politics from the pulpit. There are a lot of young people out there who have not lost faith in God but they have lost faith in organized religion. They have a hard time understanding why a church who turned a blind eye to child molestation could even think about throwing a stone at someone else. They have a tough time understanding why a church that says “thou shall not drink” has so many members on facebook holding a glass of wine. They see the deacon who curses out the sales clerk, the church member who never leaves a tip and all of the other shortcomings that we all have. Young adults aren’t looking for a church that is perfect but they are looking for people who are real.I graduated from a large high school in 1982. There were two agnostics in my class. Everyone else professed something, even if they did not believe anything. It was unpopular not to. My generation did little to question the teaching of the church, even if we knew they were dead wrong. Today’s young adults will question the teachings of the church and they should be free to do so without condemnation from leaders. Blind faith is false faith. We need to know what and why we believe. We also need to leave room for difference of opinion. Peter and Paul didn’t even agree. There are numerous people in the Bible who asked some pretty tough questions. I know way too many people sitting in the pews who have no idea what is really in the Bible. Too often people are willing to show up on Sunday morning and wait for the preacher to tell them what and how they should believe. Maybe if we want to attract young adults, we should treat them like adults and not robots ready for programming.

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  12. I was a “youth” in the 70’s, a minister of worship in the 80’s and 90’s, and a teacher of youth in the 2000’s. All I can say is Yes. It’s true. We all saw it coming but were afraid to try and change it. We used worship as evangelism rather than exaltation. Worship became big business. Today’s youth have figured out that there is now no bread in the bread store.

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  14. In the First Century, church meant the body of believers. They were the church. It wasn’t a building. It was people. It was love. Acts 4:13 says
    When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus..
    They took note that THEY HAD BEEN WITH JESUS.
    On the one hand, mattarino, I totally agree, but you or I could re-write this same article about the mainstream church and it would be equally true.
    If young people, old people, and in-between people, left church saying that those people are different, they must have been with Jesus, if when we asked those people on the street to define a Christian in a few words and they said LOVE instead of RULES or NARROW MINDED, we would not have nearly big enough churches. I am a 65 year old guy who loves current worship music more than hymns. The issue for church for everyone of every age is if you remove all the tasty frosting from the cake, do we find Jesus at the very center of our cake. If we do, our cake can be a bundt cake to a seven layer chocolate, even a baked bean cake. If He is not, the cake will fall in the oven. When did church become a building.That was a sad day )-B

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  16. The greatest destroyer of true Christian descipleship was Christendom. All the wrong powers (political, social, financial, military…) entered the church when Constantine hijacked it and turned the it into an institution. What you are describing above is only another symptom of that institutional mindset. Turning back to Christendom is not the answer – turning back to Christ is.

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    • I thank God for sending His son to shed His blood, which washes me white as snow,life is in the blood and through it I received life eternal. I have been justified, stood before the judge and proclaimed forgiven to be declared righteous, court dismissed., I have been sanctified,set apart,made holy. in me is the Holy Spirit to guide me. I have a heavenly home awaiting me. I am a child of the King , a brother in the Lord . I am thankful for that i shall have eternal life. and yet I sin,why? it is one thing for sin to live in the believer, but it is quite another thing for the believer to live in sin. The day I accepted Christ I became part of the HIS church aand i gather to HIS name and none other. Reminds me of this great hymn.

      •Gathered in Thy name, Lord Jesus,
      Losing sight of all but Thee,
      O what joy Thy presence gives us,
      Calling up our hearts to Thee!
      •Loved with love which knows no measure,
      Save the Father’s love to Thee,
      Blessed Lord, our hearts would treasure
      All the Father’s thoughts of Thee.
      •All His joy, His rest, His pleasure—
      All His deep delight in Thee—
      Lord, Thy heart alone can measure
      What Thy Father found in Thee.
      •How He set His love upon Thee—
      Called Thee His beloved Son;
      Yet for us He did not spare Thee,
      By Thy death our life was won.
      •O the joy, the wondrous singing,
      When we see Thee as Thou art!
      Thy blest name, Lord Jesus, bringing
      Sweetest music to God’s heart.
      •Notes of gladness, songs unceasing,
      Hymns of everlasting praise,
      Psalms of glory, joy increasing,
      Through God’s endless day of days.

      Source: http://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn.php/nt/204#ixzz2bxEQzNK7

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      • Amen,
        As much love and mercy we desire of our Father let us shine forth to the world.
        Are we lawless?
        No
        A lawless man shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

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        • Remember that you are only white as snow as long as you keep his commands. Don’t let your righteousness be evil spoken of.

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          • Only CHRISI was sin free.GOD gave us 10 commandments and there is no one that can follow them. Once wrongdoers (sinners) have placed their faith in Christ, God declare them righteous. new believers havepeace with god(romans5v1)because all sins,past, present and future are forgiven. once forgiven, believersare no longer subject to the judgenentthat was due (rom8v1) the declaration of this is justification

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            • What you say is true brother Ralph, but what about what brother James says?
              Faith without works is dead. I say he is right because there is no grace without faith. If you feel I misquote him then please search the scriptures and pray for wisdom.

              Faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead.

              Blessings.

            • How can you say no one can follow them? ( The ten commandments) That’s preposterous! God would not have given them to man had he thought man was incapable of showing that much love as to follow them. God also bestows graces to fully follow him. He does not demand that we be absolutely sin-free, but the commandments are a blueprint for those who are genuinely trying to avoid sin. They aren’t called the 10 suggestions….He is God, the Creator of us, and we are the created (creatures.) Therefore, I think he knows what he is doing, we only need to trust, and follow the Maker’s instructions.

          • Ted, the reason that Jesus made the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount so difficult was to help see the utter impossibility of being good enough. If just thinking it is the same as doing it, then we are all fated to fail. That is why Paul said in Romans 3,
            3:10 All have sinned and fallen short of God, 3:23There is none righteous, no not one, and Jeremiah,
            Jeremiah 17:9
            “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.
            Who can understand it?”

            We are not white because of our deeds. Jesus made that clear. That’s why He HAD to die for us. Understand, this is not endorsement of no works, but that my status with God is not based on them. It is based on Jesus’ intervention. My good deeds should grow out my gratitude for what Jesus did for me, and my desire to share that gift with others.

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          • Musicacre,

            This Law was given to show us transgression and Now the law is written on our hearts.
            If we have never known guilt we are either lawless or God.

            If I have guilt I must pay, Thank God he gave us a way to pay and yet live! This is how I know He loves me. He wants the world to live.

            Now that I have established I am guilty and owe a debt I must now forgive the debts of others, For how can I say to God: Forgive my debts but he must pay. What do I know about sin?

            Sin is an expression of freewill contrary to truth.

            We attempt to deny our brother, and our neighbor the same love that God has illuminated for us when we do not forgive our debts as we are forgiven.

            The truth is God loves us. If you expect God to punish your neighbor yet hold you blameless you are hiding the truth that you know from your brother.
            God forgives me when I am in Christ. Thank God Jesus is our High priest. Elsewise we would be guilty of attempting to bring untruth into the presents of God when we sin. No one comes to the Father but by Jesus. Sin is the absence of truth. It is black and white.

            The “grosser” the sin the”grosser” the lack of understanding. There is no degree of untruth.

            Christ is the answer to our debt problem.

            I love Jesus. He loved me even when I did not love him. Oh the patience!
            If we love him we will follow his commands. If we don’t love him then maybe we don’t understand what he did for us.

            By there fruits you will recognize them.

            I recognize pride because I have been prideful.

            I recognize all my sins I pray. I need my brother. I need my neighbor.

            Brothers, in all humility remind each other why and how we love Christ.

            The Bible says it much better than I can because it is the word of God.
            Amen.

            Brothers, do not allow any man or anything to come between you and Jesus. He is the key to life.

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  17. The greatest destroyer of true Christian descipleship was Christendom. All the wrong powers (political, social, financial, military…) entered the church when Constantine hijacked it and turned it into an institution. What you are describing above is only another symptom of that institutional mindset. Turning back to Christendom is not the answer – turning back to Christ is.

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    • Hi Kyle,
      I agree with you thoroughly! My between the lines is that we are in a pre-Constantinian society and should return to doing what we did then: Love God and tangibly love people. The early church were notorious self-sacrificers to love the least and last. The faith always does better when it isn’t mixed up with power…not to mention money and sex.

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      • I understand the desire to see some “perfect” time in the past when Christianity was practiced perfectly, but since that isn’t the case one should look forward, not backwards. Christ was perfect and left us with His church, however, even while he was still alive mortally, on this earth, things went sideways, specifically because of one of his own followers., Judas. So even his own inner circle had a problem. Just like their would be down through the ages, and still is. Saints and sinners among us. Everything Christ experienced is instructive for us, and this situation no less. You don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. We are taught by this that the net is spread out far and attracts all kinds of people, but some will remain unmoved in the end. It’s kind of pie in the sky to think that as humans we don’t need some sort of structure to communicate with other humans. Constantine is taken out of context so lightly it’s absolutely breathtaking! Do you realize how many thousands of deaths he prevented by legalizing Christianity? I don’t know if some churches have re-made him into some kind of arch-villain in order to have a bogey man and ignore their own faults. Because of his bold moves the people rejoiced and were able to build the churches they needed to meet in. Getting together in caves, etc was definitely a temporary solution and not one that the early Christians preferred. One can praise the courage of Christains whenever they are persecuted and stand up (like in Syria today, for instance, if you’re paying attention, it never has stopped…) but one shouldn’t analyze it to mean that having buildings is the culprit. One has a marriage, which to large degree is spiritual, yet a physical place is needed to live out that vocation. Matter isn’t sinful; it’s what people do with it or what they do to get it, that might be sinful.

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        • Just another comment further to talking about Christians living their faith in hostile territory- World Watch Monitor, -it’s the website to go to, to see the Christian persecution incidents that are happening right now, that the mainstream media is ignoring.

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        • Do you know how many deaths Constantine caused by blurring the line between the two kingdoms?

          What is life and death musicacre?
          What is your concept of a martyr. To follow your reasoning we must conclude that they were suicidal!

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        • Hi Musicacre,

          You are correct, there will only be one perfect era, and that one is in the future! Constantine is much misunderstood. He did not make Christianity the state religion. He only called off the persecutions…Rome didn’t officially become Christian until after the death of Julian the pagan in something like 360, if memory serves.

          The church does strangely well in times and places of persecution. “The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church,” said Tertullian. The Voice of the Martyrs distributes a map of persecution. More are dying now perhaps than ever before. Christians around the world need our prayers. Egypt is another place right now.

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          • What difference does it make if his name was Constantine or Julian.
            At some point in history being a Christian became easier than it ever was. After which point people forget what it meant to bear a cross and look at what happens. The idea of martyr becomes more abstract and less concrete with every generation.

            We can still bear a cross today. Thank God from whom all blessing flow.

            Blessings Matt,

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          • Yes, the people in Egypt need a lot of prayers, and they are in ours. The martyrdoms around us can serve to give our lives clarity, to throw off indecision and weakness! It’s hard not to be angry when one first receives news of these hate-fueled murders, but in the end prayer is the answer…and living one’s life so as to be ready to meet our Lord.

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            • I just wanted to add one thing; you mentioned crosses. A person can be heroic by accepting and quietly bearing the crosses we encounter in everyday life. We all have them at various times in our life…….some are big, some are small. I remember one speaker calling them the annoying “pinpricks” during the day. We can be transformed by the way we accept them.

    • Amen! The issue, however, is sorting through and throwing out all of the bad tradition in our thinking that we’ve absorbed over the years. It takes a while.

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  18. I would like to see the specifics behind the polls referenced. I’ve read plenty of articles whether political or faith based that site statistics in a way to try to prove a conclusion that the author reached long before the polling was ever conducted. Many pollsters even have an objective when conducting polls and have a desired outcome and phrase questions a certain way or define things a certain way to achieve that result. Sometimes it’s just for the shock factor, to grab attention. Sometimes it’s to support a movement to do something. I’ve found this to appear to be the case in some of Barna’s polls. They will make a generalization comment to sum up the findings, but if you look at the actual wording of the question, that’s not really what was asked. Here, I’d like to know how they define attend church and what qualifies as coming back. Back to any Christian group or back to that same church or that same denomination? Secondly, even with the limited information given, the stats have been twisted in this article. What was said was that 61% of church high school students NEVER go back. In a completely different study with likely different criteria, 78-88% of kids in a youth group were reported to leave church, MOST never to return. Most is over half. So that means more than 39-44%. Yet, the article claims that the youth group appears to have a lower retention rate than nothing. 61 is not lower than 39-44. The percent of youth group high school kids could be higher than 39-44, but the article doesn’t say exactly what it is, perhaps to allow people to think it’s a lot higher than it really is. Maybe they hoped people would ignore the MOST and assume it’s the full 78-88% that don’t go back.

    When I see bending of information to suit a point, it’s hard for me to really engage in the discussion. I try to be careful with stats and not use them unless I really know them, but it is often difficult to the details of a poll.

    I’m not trying to dismiss the points here. I’ve taught youth groups for about a decade and I did find the Christian replacementism idea very interesting. It’s kind of like we are trying to recreate the church in the World’s image instead of recreating the world in Jesus’s image.

    The way that God wired me with a questioning and analytical mind, flags about the intent were raised when I read the phrasing and commentary concerning those stats. I don’t doubt there is a problem here. But I think the presentation of the stats is misleading to make the problem seem bigger than it actually may be to shock people into action. While the action may be noble, I am not a means to an end type of guy.

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    • Hi Jason, Thank you for being thoughtful and discerning. Data does often get misused. I did do a post where I reference where I got the data and why it isn’t in the article: https://thegospelside.com/2013/08/12/o-yeah-and-other-things-i-wish-i-would-have-said-on-cool-church/

      The main point of the data was pretty simple but apparently not communicated well by me: It appears that a higher percentage of kids from churches with youth groups disengage (78-88) from church than the number of kids attended church disengage (60%). If you assume that a great number of kids in church have youth programs (the head of the youth ministry network in Phoenix tells me that in Phx around 70% of the churches have a youth ministry…and the large churches have very large groups then that means that the 60% number (the “total kids” number is skewed much, much higher due to the YG kids being included in it. In other words, we are spending millions and millions on youth ministry that might actually be harming their chances of becoming an adult church member. That is a really, really big deal to someone like me who has spent 30 years in youth ministry trying to plug kids into the church.

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  19. I believe everything church leaders did in the past was done with the most godly intentions. Our culture is changing at an exponential rate and youth ministry is but one example of not being able to incorporate the changes fast enough. I also feel that parents themselves have abdicated their own role in spiritually leading their children to youth pastors. There is also spiritual warfare that attacks every good thing our churches try to implement.

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  20. Enjoyed your blog post. It is eye opening, but probably in a different way than you were intending. I always felt there was something not quite right about those kinds of youth programs, but couldn’t fully put my finger on it. As such I have avoided seeker sensitive program center church. Your thought (and research) shed light on the matter and back up my gut feeling with a well defined answer. Now I don’t write this with a fundamentalist’s judgmental attitude, toward those kinds of churches but instead with the intention of warding off these kinds of trends in the church I attend and where I serve as an elder.

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  21. Interesting article, and I have to agree. I was raised in a small, traditional, Baptist church. In the 70’s our church launched, which at that time was, a sizable bus/children’s ministry focusing on numbers and professions of faith among those being bused into the church. We introduced “children’s church” to our small community and put a tremendous amount of effort and dollars on giving the children/teens what they wanted so they would return and bring others with them. We are called to be fishers, and I’m not writing this to be critical of the honest and well-intended efforts of our church. However, when I visit my hometown church, I look around and see that there is not one product of those efforts in the church today. I do believe you are right when you suggest that giving people what they need, rather than what they want, will leave a lasting impression. Thank you for giving us something to think about.

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  22. The term “church” is being interestingly used here. Christ called us to minister to the world, proselyte, feed the poor, cloth the naked, and provide shelter for the homeless! Yet, this ‘church’ many speak of is one that is behind four walls and serves only to provide itself.

    As I once was a youth minister and strong member of one of those churches, I today realize that I was limited to the ‘demands’ of the families to provide child care, ‘safe’ environments, and not
    ‘be boring.’ The students in those environments never were challenged to think of their personal faith.

    The students that I challenge and forced to reflect on their journey they became active in their faith. They sought to serve Him in every situation. Today, some of those attend a local church regularly and others are seeking relationships outside of those walls. Both, though statistics only count the ‘attenders,” are strong in faith!

    let us seek Him in the world so that we may minister to others, to bring His Light and Salvation to those that are lost. Then, we will see a revitalization of His Church which has no walls!

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  23. I look at the big elaborate “concert” services as the packaging and the message as the product. Same with the youth events, they are just the packaging for the message. Sixty years ago people were not taught, to question authority, not in school, not at work, and not in church. The youth of today are taught to question the status quo. This is what drives innovation. But they learn to question authority everywhere. Combine that with the availability of information and the exposure to diversity and the youth have questions.

    When homosexuality and divorce are both condemned in the same chapter of the Bible why is one okay and one not?

    When Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself, why does the church condemn?

    Jesus taught to accept everyone yet the members judge everyone.

    Thall shall not kill an unborn baby, but war against Muslims is encouraged?

    The message of Jesus Christ is what we profess as Christians. But when we the church fails to live up to his beliefs, and his commandments, the problem is not in the packaging but in the product. The youth of today are not always accepted and loved for who they are, they are told they need to conform, to be like us. That is the message of many churches and it doesn’t work.

    Church leaders need to ask themselves if two men covered in tattoos, wearing leather, and riding loud motorcycles showed up at your church would you accept them as they were, or would you judge them? And then if they kissed, would they feel welcome in your church? What if one was a different race? Would you allow them to be on the board? To be spokes people for your congregation?

    The youth of today are better at looking at diversity and seeing the people not the image. If you want to keep the youth coming back, embrace the diversity, and live Jesus’s message of love. When the hypocrisy is gone the youth will return.

    Is your message uplifting or do you preach fear? The young people have enough fear from the news, and facing the world, they want service to be uplifting and energizing.

    One other thing is the 20 somethings are working more and making less. As a church you are competing with all of the other leisure time activities. You have to give them something special. 60 years ago people went to church because they thought they had to. To survive today you need to give the people a reason to want to come.

    Stop focusing on the package and make a product that the youth, and people as a whole will embrace.

    Peace begins with me,
    Mark

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  24. We’re also overlooking the influence the education system now has on our youth and the lack of discipleship at home. We someone expect a couple hours of youth programming and church services a week to be enough when the kids are faced with pressures to doubt anything about the Christian faith, especially by the time they reach college–when they are transitioning out of youth programs. They are then made to question everything they believed up until then and experience this new ‘awakening’ of relativism. Parents have got to do their part in the home as well, daily.

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  25. Interesting article. I don’t agree with all of it though. I believe the writer did an excellent job comparing the opposing extremes of which direction the church is or could be heading. On the other hand, I don’t believe his assessment is a true reflection of the church.

    Critically thinking, it’s absurd to make such absolute accusations about the church as a whole based on numbers.
    As an “ACTIVE” youth leader I have the opportunity to really experience “SPIRITUAL” growth in the church “WEEKLY” as I witness relationships with God and fellowship with saints amongst youth from ages 5-18 every week! I recently visited 5 church’s in the GA over the summer (I live in Oregon) and was blessed to witness the same thing!) By no means have I experienced every youth ministry, and for the writer to be so certain and absolute about these matters is ridiculous.

    Furthermore, I don’t believe the problem is that we are “catering to needs” of youth. After all, if we are servants, should not we meet the youth and anyone else where they are? What is wrong with speaking to them in a language they understand? What public speaker doesn’t consider their audience? What is wrong with providing a ministry that they understand in a way that promotes their relationship with Christ? If the resources are available, I believe the saints should full access to them to encourage the building of the church.

    True “church growth” cannot or should not at least, be evaluated by studies reciting demographical behaviors. The truth is, many youth aren’t returning to church because we have failed to preach the gospel of Christ with an understanding of “GRACE.” We have been taught, and many continue to preach a “fear/guilt/shame-based” faith that relies on man’s effort of making things happen (i.e. church growing formulas, etc.)

    Until we acknowledge that we can do nothing to add to God! We will continue to be distracted/consumed by theological arguments and articles that focus on growing the church in numbers, rather than in spiritual maturity. The youth of today recognize this hypocrisy and simply opt out of the church! It is sad that learned theologians and leaders are busy writing articles from a classroom or some distance, and encouraging a conversation that does nothing to promote the gospel. Frankly, it’s a slap in the face to servants like myself who faithfully pray about ways to engage youth, and are blessed daily to see their maturity in Christ. It’s so easy to judge what’s going wrong from a distance. Perhaps, we could focus on spiritual maturity rather than church numbers.
    And yeah, church is cool it should be….because God is cool! Now do a study on that!!

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    • Hi Tim,
      Thank you for contributing to the conversation. Thank you also for your service to Jesus and kids. I mean no slap in the face. In fact, I have been in the trenches since 1982 and am still in the trenches with you in youth ministry and summer camping. My main job is training youth pastors and volunteers.

      Now, let me say that to valuate our practices as ministers of the Gospel is not a slap in the face, it is a responsibility. Second, I am by no means saying don’t speak to them in their language. But their language in the football field or coffee house, the Young Life club, the discipleship group, the youth room and the sanctuary are not necessarily the same. Part of the process of sanctification and growth to “complete” in Christ (Col 1:28) is learning the language of the faith. So we start in their world and take them past it. What language we use in the sanctuary (and are introducing in the youth room) is a question as to the purpose of the church. Many youth workers are convinced that the church is supposed to be the “same” as the world (Webster’s first definition of relevant). I have blogged about this a couple of times recently:
      One is: https://thegospelside.com/2013/08/12/o-yeah-and-other-things-i-wish-i-would-have-said-on-cool-church/
      Check it out – particularly points 6 and 7. The data from young adults indicates that they particularly want the church to be different from the world. As to why I think that is I have a post about that as well: https://thegospelside.com/2012/10/11/why-the-big-box-church-works-for-the-over-35-but-not-the-under-25/?wref=tp

      Tim, your closing comment leads me to guess that you are pretty young. Many others have disagreed with me, but “God is cool” is NOT the reason the church embraced “cool.” A desire to reach more for Jesus is. My primary bone of contention (besides taking youth out of multi-generational worship) is in using the church sanctuary as the locus of evangelism. I don’t find that in the history of the first 1880ish years of the church, and it really didn’t become popular until Willow Creek started the seeker model in the 1970s…much like the sinner’s prayer didn’t exist before Billy Sunday invented it in 1900. I am saying that when we turn the sanctuary into a place of evangelism rather than a place of discipleship, we, as a general strategy, turn Christians into passive inviters rather than active evangelists. That creates a vacuum of discipleship and fails in the biblical Eph. 4 model of ministry.

      Thanks again for commenting.

      Matt

      Reply

  26. Interesting that this post is a year old. I have seen it re-posted to Facebook twice today. I agree with many of your points, and yet think that the problem is deeper than what most of us see as the church – denominations and congregations. Yes, they all have problems, and many are dying, for a variety of reasons, some of which are mentioned in this piece. But we need to remember a couple of things, too. The church is individual Christians, and Christian families. How many families make worship a priority? Well, my child has a soccer tournament this Sunday. What is more important – soccer or worship? Employers do make reasonable accommodations for religious belief. Talk to your HR person. And don’t just show up for one hour on Sunday. Be INVOLVED. Parents have a HUGE influence on their children. Show your children that Christ is a priority in your life. Do we, as Christian parents, disciple our children? Do we conduct family worship on a regular basis? Do we realize that doctrine is important, and choose a church on that basis, or do we go the place that our children want us to, because they have the coolest youth group, the best programs or whatever? Do you read Scripture with your children, pray with and for them? Do you walk the walk…..repenting of sin to your spouse, your children, your parents, your siblings? Asking forgiveness of those you have sinned against? Do you encourage this in your children? Do you seek to root out sin in your life? The Christian life is not for sissies.
    For those who lament the death of the church: God has faithfully preserved his church throughout redemptive history. There always has, and always will be a remnant of God’s chosen people. If you love Christ, then you must love his Bride. The Church is his bride, and we are his church. You cannot love Christ and forsake his church. We must build each other up; not as the world builds up, with and I’m ok/you’re ok outlook. Not with what feels right, for feelings are easily manipulated, and change with the wind. We in The Church must hold one another accountable to the word of God, encouraging one another toward Godliness. “Be holy as I am holy”. The gospel is a body of truth that is passed from one generation to the next. God’s word does not change. We must mold ourselves to it rather than it to what we want. When people in the church do this, then the church will shape the world. Sadly, we have allowed the world to shape the church, and much to our detriment.

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  27. Our church is family integrated for the very reasons you describe in your article. There is no youth group or Sunday school for the children; rather they participate fully in the worship service. They are provided with notebooks that touch on what is being shared in the sermon. In addition the families are provided with devotionals that address the theme of the sermon, with the parents taking on the responsibility for their childrens’ spiritual growth. The children and youth also actively participate in ministries, such as cities4life and child evangelism. It is out of the box in comparison to what most churches are doing, but our children are growing in commitment to their faith. It is not perfect, and one of the major drawbacks exist with the single parent families and the dysfunctional parents, but even there some of the older people are mentoring the children from those families. I was not sure when this concept was first presented if it would work, but it does.

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  28. Young people aren’t the only ones leaving the church in droves. While I love God, the Bible and fellow believers–and desire true fellowship, I’m done digging through the garbage called church to look for these things. Church is a dangerous place to be for a mature believer in Messiah who can think, study and discern the voice of God independent of “leadership.” It is grievous to the spirit to endure the ungodly routine and the carnal spirit that controls the whole scene and prohibits God’s spirit from flowing freely through the congregation. I know many adults who are no longer willing to put up with the politics and man made inventions such as children’s church and youth groups, to name a few. Jesus didn’t build that house; it’s not made according to his pattern and destroys as much faith as it inspires. God certainly has something much better, and if we follow HIS leading, we’ll find it.

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    • Hi Sharon, Thanks for commenting. I disliked church for years. I really wanted to like it. I just couldn’t get past the politics and agendas and the same sermon every week. I came to a point though where I realized the only thing worse than the church was life without it. Organized Christianity can really stink. Disorganized Christianity seems one step worse. I hold out hope that there is someplace in every town where people will walk gently with one another and pursue Jesus together. Blessings to you in your journey.

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      • Thank you Mattarino. Disorganized Christianity seldom works because people are still so deeply attached and programmed to the church system and the whole spirit of it. Those who are immersed in fellowship with God and his word have no problem getting it together. Once upon a time I looked into finding a good independent fellowship in my area, but have found nothing. But that’s okay. I’m happy without it. I went in and out of church for many years, but at last I am one of the many who are truly being called away from the church system in order to have the freedom to do the work God has called me to. I once ministered in music, and still do on rare occasion, but now I’m too involved in my “mission field” which is entertainment. I love it! The Lord pours out his love on me through the unbelievers, as well as some of the Believers that I meet. It is so healing! I can move in all of my spiritual gifts without having to get permission/approval from church leadership. I love it when God opens the doors to pray for people and even lay hands on them in nightclub situations. I love it when God allows me to reach out in love to people who have thrown their lives into the sin of homosexuality, drugs and alcohol. What a happy trip! In God there is no limitation. That’s where I want to be. You are where you are because that is where God wants you to be. You have a place there where you can not only serve but receive spiritual nourishment. There is an anointing there for you that allows you to touch lives. There is no longer an anointing for me in church. For me going back to church at this time would be sin. Occasionally I get a heavy dose of personal ministry by serving in prison ministry for a three day weekend, and once a year I attend High Holy Days services at a Messianic synagogue; but that’s as close as I dare get. It’s the way God wants it and that’s just fine with me. If I need prayer, wisdom, discernment, or fellowship, I have many tried and true friends in the faith to call upon. So I’m okay. And having met you online, I am encouraged to see that God is raising up prophets such as yourself to speak to those who are still a part of the system. May the Lord richly bless you as you so willing stick your neck out in service to him.

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  29. It always breaks my heart when Christians criticize one another, when they know minimal to nothing about the actual hearts for Jesus, of the people and pastors at the “mega churches” or “small churches” that they oh so like to criticize and judge. Please focus on your own relationship with Christ, especially when you know nothing about the actual souls that are being saved at each of these churches that you are judging from a superficial point of view. Have you actually gone to one of these churches you are judging, attended a smallgroup, and spoken to those whose lives are now changed and on fire for Jesus and are spreading his gospel? I have personally experienced this and am a believer that one should not look on the outside at worship style or number of bottoms sitting on mega church seats. Go and investigate the lives of each of these people and see how Jesus has changed their lives. They are not just a number but actual souls yearning to receive more of His Word. Each person is not just a number. Stop judging and focus on yourself. I was once a judger….did nothing for my growth in Christ. Romans 14. 1 Corinthians 1:10…

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    • Hi Evita,

      Thank you for taking time to write. I might be making a leap here, but it feels as if you think that my attempt at critique is not given out of love and a desire for God’s best for the church. We live in a day where no one wants to have honest conflict. Not all disagreement is destructive. The church must learn to have disagreement in love and have a willingness self-critique – those are two things the world sees and tells us they dislike about us.

      I attended a megachurch for 8 years. I led a small group and taught a Sunday School class at that church. The leaders and people at that church are fantastic. I was asked to go on staff four times at that church. I was asked to interview for a staff position at one of the 5 largest churches in the country once. In addition, I was in an ecumenical ministry where my job was to be in relationship with all of the churches in my area. So I have probably worshipped in the sanctuaries of all of the 20 largest churches in Phoenix. I actually do speak from some experience on this. I am not critiquing giftedness, commitment to Christ or the desire to reach the world in any of the pastors I know. These are critiques of “how” we are going after our “what.” This is important. The young adults dumping the church are shouting to us, “listen up!”

      The data tells us we are going the wrong way. The “cool church” post is one person trying to read the tea leaves, look at the evidence and draw some conclusions. I love that large church pastors are logging on and non-defensively discussing the subject. It is one of the bright points to me: that pastors, who have a lot to lose are willing to ask hard questions.

      I actually find it really hopeful for the church that so many are led by people willing to ask hard questions rather than merely buy their own press.

      Thanks for your comments. I know that you are trying to help.

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  30. Hi Kyle,
    I am interested in not only your article, but your conclusion. Please help this old pastor understand.

    First I agree our churches are emptying at an alarming rate. If it is true that 61% of youth leave after graduation to never return, and 78% to 88% leave youth ministry to never return, then the numbers alone tell us that we should not seek to minister to youth at all. It seem our attempts are hastening their departure.
    Second, if you say that this statement big=effective, are you saying small=effective. Ihave been in a larger number of churches with small ineffective youth program than bigger ones. Numbers are not everything, but they are a measure of at least a knowledge of your effectiveness with your opportunity. When I came to my present church we invested $600 a year and had a youth group of a leader and a single student. I hope I wasn’t to quick to decide something needed to be done.
    Third, Replacementism, is a word you used and I understand your consern, but are those necessarily wrong individually. You advertise a summer camp, isn’t that a replacement for other activities or camps to encourage youth into a deeper walk. I would prefer my kids listening to christian rap than that from current hip-hop culture.
    Fourth, you say to watch out for cultural relevance over transformation. How about cultural irrelevance over transformation. Romans tell any conformity is wrong that the only way to go is transformation.
    Fifth, what is the difference between the youth sub-culture and the traditional church sub-culture. Again we seem to be arguing that my rut is better than your rut. Also why is saddleback materials mass market, out of context, franchise-fee curriculum. When I believe every denomination, synod, and Diocese create material for consumption, with the difference being the former actually church tested and useful. We must becareful not to convict others of what we are doing ourselves.
    Sixth, in you missional vs attractional section you seem say reach out is secondary to keeping tradition. I would propose that ‘ You can be attractional without being missional, but you can’t be missional without being attractional’. How many churches roll out the same tired program year after year with a leader who doesn’t want to be there and think they have done their outreach to youth. Not only is that ineffective its SIN. Market driven means to reach out to a specific people group in a way that they will understand and involve themselves with the product. What is wrong with that?
    `Last is you conclusion. Early church worship was not filled with sacrament and symbols. It was filled with the presence of God Himself. I have yet to find in scripture where non-christian were forced to leave the building for the rest to have communion, and the people who went into the highways and byways were sent to compel people to come back to the party thrown by God Himself. I understand your heart, but please don’t throw babies out with bath water. There are thing we can learn from all, even the misguided. Your camp seems to have taken a page out of some of those groups excitement manual. Let us all live by grace, encouraging one another to be the best we can be. Finally let us all do what ever we can so just one can meet Jesus!

    Pastor Larry Bong

    Reply

    • Hello Pastor Larry,
      Thank you for the great questions! Strangely enough I hit almost everything you ask about in a post 2 days ago called, “O Yeah, and other things I wish I had said.” https://thegospelside.com/2013/08/12/o-yeah-and-other-things-i-wish-i-would-have-said-on-cool-church/ and another one yesterday: https://thegospelside.com/2013/08/13/you-dont-seriously-think-what-we-do-in-church-matters/

      We can talk more if you would like. I can give you a phone or email. Mostly you t-up everything in those two posts plus a bit. I’ll take a stab at the plus a bit here…

      1. Should we have youth ministry: Absolutely! Unled things die. We would never not have a pastor for adults. The church would die. Someone asked this a few hundred responses ago. The short answer is that Jesus was the first youth pastor: had a small group of young men that he discipled and entrusted the ministry to when he was gone. The issue is what kind of youth ministry? The staying power of what we are doing is, the data says, really weak. There are other factors at play in those numbers (more kids are peripheral in a big program. A church with no program only has the ones that are “all in”, etc. The idea of adult Christian leaders coming alongside kids is right. Relationships are right. Opening God’s word and teaching them what to do is right. btw, I talk about a different kind of youth ministry in 4 posts. They are http://wp.me/p2Gq9e-31 (Is the way we are doing youth ministry emptying the church” and “Life After Cool Church 1,2,3. Here is the first: https://thegospelside.com/2012/10/07/what-comes-after-cool-church-part-1-a-new-vision-for-youth-ministry/

      2. This one I answered in “O yeah” as well. Big might mean effective. It might mean something different…for example, Joel Osteen’s church is big. Most would not want to consider that a model. I am really advocating for different metrics for success. That is in “O yeah.”

      3. I listen to Christian hip hop, so I am not arguing against modern culture. I brought it up as a symptom of a larger package of attractional vs missional. That also is in the “O yeah”.

      4. Another great question. The opposite of relevance isn’t irrelevance. I also talk about that in “O yeah.”

      5. A good question. I am actually not arguing for subcultures at all. I am arguing that the sanctuary is designed for the Christian…I think I talked about that in a post yesterday: “You don’t seriously think.”
      That one is about missional vs attractional as models of doing church. A good example of missional was Mike Breen’s church in London. It was the largest church in London but didn’t have a building. They had an army of evangelistic disciples. London 10 years ago is a good model for where we will be in the next few years in the US, outside of maybe the Bible belt.

      As far as buying Sunday school materials, that is one thing. Buying prepackaged sermons is another. That is actually one of the few things that will get me defrocked. I was taking new-Christians to churches a few years ago. I went to 7 churches. 6 of them all just happened to be preaching the book of Daniel that year. What are the chances? The irony is that Rick Warren is very clear about asking people NOT to just take his stuff and regurgitate it. I have a ton of respect for Rick Warren. This is a Rick Warren problem. I chalked it up as some big churches in our area being a tad lazy…that big churches had clergy that could dial it in too once in a while. 🙂

      6. Check out the other two posts. We can talk after that. I really do explain how missional and attractional are opposites. I don’t ordinarily go for binary ideas, but those are pretty close to polarities. You can work really hard to include elements of the other, but you end up swimmming against the stream of your church’s dna on that. I think the era of attractional is nearing it’s end. I have a lot of company on that belief. That one is discussed in both “O yeah” and “You don’t seriously think?”

      7. I maintain that it was actually filled with Sacrament and symbol and have credible conservative scholars (Like John DelHousayye from Phoenix Seminary) who will back me on that. Sacrament seems to be in every NT writer and they were borrowing forms from synagogue and temple Judaism. The presence of God, absolutely!!! But they were doing things they knew when they worshipped and legit scholars affirm that. We could talk about this further if you would like. I can make a pretty strong case for it.

      Please do not misunderstand me. I am an evangelical. I met Christ at 18 because of youth ministry and love Jesus and His body, the Church. I am asking questions in love, because reflection on our practice is how we evaluate and get better. The non-Christian world is asking us some pretty hard questions. You can read the posts of those who have written in at pain caused by the church and read the surveys of millennials. They are disengaging fast. If we cannot figure this out evangelicals will be preaching to the empty rooms like the mainline churches are.

      Thank you for the fantastic questions. I am up for continuing dialogue if you would like.

      God’s peace and blessings on your ministry pastor.

      Matt+

      Reply

  31. Pingback: What’s so uncool about cool churches? | Theology & the City

  32. All the commandments are rolled up into one. Jesus said to love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love others as you love yourself. If you do this, there will be no need for follow up commandments!

    Reply

    • Exactly! The first three commandments deal with our relationship (and therefore responsibilities), with God, and the following 7 are how we treat our neighbors!

      Reply

  33. ted, Jesusrighteousness accredited to believers (1COR 1V30; 2Cor5v21)Those who believe in Jesus are freely given”right status” with God, not on the basis of thier own works,but on the basisof what God has done in Jesus Christ(ROM 3v28 ,4v5-6; Gal2:16)

    Reply

      • I’m trying to say this is how we can make our election sure.
        If you have never doubted your salvation then you may not need this kind of assurance, but understand that there are brothers and sisters that struggle with doubt.
        This is how I know God loves us 🙂 I have peace that surpasses all understanding.

        Understand that our brothers need us and we may one day need them.

        Reply

  34. see JAMES 2v24 24.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    When God justified us we were set free, forgiven us, HE gave us life eternal. not subject to anything. No one would know if they would ever enter heaven. We could sin moments before death and not be forgiven and go to HELL?. I believe if there are no works in a person, perhaps they were never a true believer, Only God knows that. Remember the false teachers that some how got into the midst of the assemblies they had no faith.

    Reply

    • We now have a high priest in the order of Melchizedek. He lives forever.
      Praise God from whom all blessing flow!
      Test everything brother Ralph. I will not stand in your way.

      If we didn’t believe and we sinned moments before we died where will we go?

      Have you ever questioned your faith Ralph?

      Would you like to know what it feels like?

      Blessings.

      Reply

  35. I think I might have figured it out Matt:)

    I think the key here is if you want to be a good sheppard you need to be in tune with your flock.

    Don’t go by what you are saying but go by what it looks like they are hearing.

    Now ordain me.

    Just kidding.

    Is the gift of tongues dead? You decide.

    Reply

    • Why are you so sure the Spirit of God moves in the numbers?
      We are given a guid and a comforter. He is personal. Statistics are difficult to interpret. And they are often lacking in scope.

      Reply

      • Brother Matt,
        Have you listened to any ultr orthadox jews latly?
        Their prayers/odes sounds like rap. But they would NEVER call it rap. Do not add to confusion.

        Reply

        • I always felt like the pastor was talking down to me. It offended me. I wondered why and I came to the conclusion that he was lording his power over me.
          WHat does that mean?

          If i want to keep you in subjugation I will keep you from that which put you and me on equal ground.

          What is the one thing a pastor can not and will not give you? I don’t know but you will have to go to seminary to learn that.
          WHY?
          Well it should not offend me or even frighten me.
          I have all I need. I can find my way because God promised many things that irrefutably make seminary unnecessary at best.

          Make the building your seminary and you will share your power with them.
          Don’t lord it over them. Share it.

          DOnt keep your light under a bushel basket and then charge admission.

          I love His ways, they are so much higher than mine
          I am nobody but I am standing here.

          If you feel powerful then you better be sharing it!

          Praise God from whom all blessing flow!

          How many of my sins do you see in my testimony?

          I am washed because I know what it means to be dirty.

          Reply

            • I mean if we can look at his thru the eyes of the pastor then maybe we can see what He did wrong. I know what I did wrong now. But can we learn anything from it?

  36. Pingback: What’s so uncool about cool churches? | Solomon's Porch - Nashville

  37. As a 20-something atheist who was intensely religious growing up, I keep reading articles like this and shaking my head. My friends and I did not leave the church because of the packaging. We left the church for a combination of two reasons:

    1) We came to see that religion as a “way of knowing” relies on methods for knowing that are unreliable (personal anecdote, the authority of a thousands-year-old book, and “faith,” which is just believing something for no reason).

    2) We came to see that the church has had a devastating impact on many people’s lives by e.g. making LGBT people feel terrible, undermining local authorities in “mission fields,” etc..

    If it weren’t for reason 1, then the devastating impacts would be unfortunate side-effects of flawed people acting in the service of great truths. If it weren’t for reason 2, the uncertainty of the propositional tenets would be tolerable for the community and experience. The trouble facing the modern church is not that it is packaging itself wrong. The trouble is that young people are increasingly learning that religion is desirable neither for its propositional truth nor, on balance, for its practical effects.

    This is a systemic weakness for old religions, and no change of style will reverse the trend.

    Reply

    • Hi John,
      I hear what you are saying and can certainly understand all of your concerns. Those things are certainly issues. When I have talked to people in your boat and asked them to tell me their story of how they embraced atheism, the two reasons you listed have become supporting justification for another underlying issue: The people I have talked to left because they were being given dogma without practice. With the folks I talked the Church was giving them a list of do’s and don’ts and a theology without a spirituality. And they finally said, “this is doing nothing that helps me live my life except make me negative and condemning of others. Who needs that? I think I’m out.” Then the other stuff came as a “here are some reasons that are legit concerns…”

      Does that resonate at all with your experience at all?

      Reply

  38. I think you’ve played a little loose with your numbers.

    You talk about 20-30 year olds attending church at half the rate of their parents and a quarter the rate of their grandparents, but you doesn’t cite any evidence to support that claim. Where do you get those numbers? Are they only from your church or do you claim that they represent the church as a whole?

    Even if those numbers represent the church as a whole, can you cite evidence that these numbers have changed over the years? I can remember many churches in the 70’s and 80’s that had the same demographic ratios. Most of the church was made of old people. The next biggest group was middle-aged people. The next biggest group was kids and then youth and then 20-somethings. Because the “relevance” movement hadn’t started at that time, those numbers certainly didn’t happen because youth were spoiled in youth groups and then weren’t willing to go to regular church as adults.

    Both of the studies that you cite talk about youth leaving the church “never to return.” That statement is patently ridiculous. No one can say today that someone who has left the church will “never” return. We can measure what someone did last Sunday. We can’t know what they will do next Sunday. If the study was thorough enough and done over a long enough period of time, the authors could have said that X% of youth left the church after high school and didn’t return before they turned 30. We can find a population of people who were churched through high school and are now over 30, and with a proper study, we can say how many attended church in their 20’s. We can’t say for certain what they will do in the future.

    I have many issues with the church and many reasons why I no longer attend or live that lifestyle. I think part of my problem was that so many pastors were good at throwing out these kinds of statements that might have contained grains of truth but were largely manipulative. Sometimes, I could see the manipulation and sometimes I could tell that I was being manipulated but didn’t see the trick. Either way, I often allowed myself to be manipulated in order to be “submissive” to church teaching. I walked away because that didn’t work well for me.

    Reply

    • Hi Bill,

      I am actually pretty straight with the numbers but they aren’t listed there. That post was an outline of a full length keynote address at a gathering of youth ministers. I give more info on it here: https://thegospelside.com/2013/08/12/o-yeah-and-other-things-i-wish-i-would-have-said-on-cool-church/

      I can send you all the data if you would like.

      The “most never to return” was a quote from the researchers on that statistic, which, if memory serves, was Lifeway. I must admit, I wondered how they could possibly know that myself.

      Peace and good things,
      Matt

      Reply

      • Numbers? How about fruit? Let’s look at the evil in the world around us (in any community or around the world) and the effectiveness of the Church to turn the tide (anywhere). Also, measure the fruit in the lives of the people in pews. Do they walk or talk any more like Jesus now than they did at the beginning? How many are rising up in maturity to begin to step into roles of teaching, preaching, wisdom, hospitality, etc., because of regular attendance and involvement?

        Rather than get bogged down in details about method and stats, we can simplify: Believers must understand that it is GOD AND GOD ALONE that we must please. When we please God, he shows up in power and does all the things we want and need him to do in our lives, including giving us wisdom, discernment and the ability to walk in the Spirit, live a life of true service, and win souls for his kingdom. When we seek to please man and seek to conform to the ways of man’s thinking–no matter how good our intentions are, that is when we miss the mark and end up WITHOUT the power of God, which is needed to change ourselves and our world. I can count them on one hand, but I have seen congregations where the leadership sought to build according to God’s pattern as revealed in Scripture, and the results were astounding. I find the answer to be very simple–although it may not be easy. Find out what God wants and give it to him–out of a loving heart and without compromise. The rest will follow. All of it.

        Reply

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  40. I’ve been in youth ministry for about twenty years and my motto has always been that we can never do better than the world can at what the world does best. The only thing that we as Christians have to offer that the world cannot is Jesus. Trying to copy the world to make church more “attractive” is a tacit admission that God’s love is not enough to keep people in church. It has been my experience that young people are not seeking more of what they already have at home or in their communities. Most are seeking meaningful relationships with other young people and caring adults, as well as something real and truthful in their lives. In a world of lies and facades, the Word of God provides truth and purpose. If the offer of eternal life, the beauty of redemption, the confidence of absolute truth, and the power of the Holy Spirit is not good enough to bring a person closer to God, why would we think the inferior pleasures of this world ever could?

    Reply

    • Hi Stephen, God’s power and presence upon you and the students you are leading.

      I think you are right in general, and even more right in specific. I think history (911) has conspired to help people want “other” rather than “like”. I blog about that in two posts: 1) “Why the big-box works for the over 35” from back in like October (911) and 2) Why young adults want the church to be unlike the world ( “O yeah” post from two days ago.

      Thanks for joining the conversation.

      Reply

  41. This is an excellent article and right on target. I’ve been seeing this for years. It’s the whole church thing. The only thing I would add is that we also need to teach everyone in the church how to defend the Bible starting with Genesis 1:1. Creation is literal. Dinosaurs were created on the 6th day just as all the land animals. It’s powerful to KNOW the Bible is true from the first to last verses.

    Reply

    • Hi Michelle,
      Thank you for commenting. I do want to mention that there are a great number of folks who think that the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant, and has authority over their life, but who do not think that Genesis 1 is historic in nature.
      For me, the hill to die on, especially with those considering the faith, is the resurrection. If the resurrection is true, than a man who claimed to be God was victorious over death and opened the way back to God. If not, then we are, according to Paul, still dead in trespasses and sin. So I make that my hill, rather than creation.

      Reply

  42. First of all, I must say that this posting has seemingly occurred at just the right time. I’m pretty sure Matt did not have the expectation of 1000 comments when he wrote it. I would also say that what is happening here is exactly the ingredient that the church lacks. Dialogue.
    As an old guy who has looked carefully at individual churches and denominations for many years, I can tell you that what I observe on the church level is radically different from what I see at the denominational level. I won’t buttonhole the denomination my church is, but use it as what I think would be a representative model. The people who attend my church could not tell you what denomination the church is. Actually, probably a good thing. I went to the denomination website a couple weeks ago, and was shocked when I clicked on the link delineating the church’s policy on various issues. I was flabbergasted to see things listed like labor unions, movies, low fat beverages. (Nah, no low fat beverages. There still voting on that one.) I halfway expected to see a church policy on grocery stores and number two pencils.
    My point is that the reason so many have left church, regardless of their age, is because far too often it has become about Us instead of about Him. I’m pretty sure that the disciples would not have had discussion and then a vote by acclimation about whether or not to feed the 5000. To be honest with you, I would be shocked if my church, my denomination, your church, your denomination, would not have gone through a lengthy process before making such a decision. Mankind got in trouble at Babel because THEY wanted to be in charge, not GOD. God’s Word says Christians have been grafted in, but far too often we appear to consider ourselves to be equals with Him. At least we behave as though that were true. I agree that what I have observed would parallel the picture Matt paints. I had a faithful Christian son who suffered for twenty years with schizophrenia, until he unexpectedly died last November at age 35. I can’t begin to tell you how many churches immediately turned us away when we looked for spiritual help, churches that talked a good game but didn’t live one. That is what turns people off and sends them away. It isn’t the music, isn’t the preaching, it isn’t the building, it’s the spirit. We call our churches Houses of God. The question is, when someone enters, does it feel as though Jesus lives there. Honestly, nothing else matters. The deciding factor for me in life is, WWJD, What would Jesus do, not what would the Diaconate do. They ought to be the same, but usually they are not.

    Reply

  44. The church swallowed those pills long ago. The good news is they weren’t fatal. Since at least the 1950’s we can see true faith in the church being supplanted by legalism, dogma, and tradition. What we’ve seen in more recent years hasn’t just been a quest for “relevance” but for true faith and life… for people led by the Spirit, with God’s Word written on their hearts, not mere creatures of dogma and habit. For what it’s worth, it’s all pretty much a replay of the first few chapters of the book of Revelation. Some churches fell asleep, some were on the verge of being – some I’m sure have been – spit out of the Lord’s mouth, a few have stayed faithful, etc. On the flip side, within the living church, each member of the body is arranged according to the Lord’s plan.

    Reply

    • Hi Kelly, I would guess that most church historians would say the Revelation reference is more accurate than the 50’s-that when churches go cold there has always been another to supplant them. The glaring, rapid drop off of young adults, the researchers say, is historically unprecedented, however.

      Reply

  46. I want to suggest that what young people might be rejecting is not that Christian adults are not behaving like they should, but rather that the message being preached in many churches makes no sense.

    Youth are pointing out what should have been obvious all along, that the 2.5 billion Christians in the world are not the only ones who know God and are going to Heaven, while the other 4.5 billion rot in Hell. It’s not that Christians have not been Christian enough (meaning exclusive with a monopoly on God and Heaven), but that Christians have been too “Christian” and not human enough, as Jesus was human.

    Reply

  47. Pingback: Stories I’ve Found, 8/16/2013 | homiliesandstraythoughts

  48. “”Big, flashy, concert halls have also brought a couple of my friends to Christ. Why? Because you are forgetting what everyone sees the Church as. People still think Church is all about being… bored. However, the Bible tells us to be on fire for Christ. There is ENERGY in being a Christian, and I feel like that is what the youth has. When my friends who weren’t Christians see a youth convention, they say “Wow, being a Christian is a lot more interesting than I thought.”.””

    Are you serious? Because with that we are drawing people in because we have a nice church amd nice effects… the “enegery” and fire we so called have should be from the fact that my God is all knowing all powerful and no one can stand agisnt! The love that draws people should be from the fact he laid down his life!!! He gave everything! And we sit and give nothing… the so called gospel has become a cookie cutter christian today. We shouldn’t live by what we want or desire or dream but for God! And if we have to use lights and eletronics and all that then one we aren’t using the gospel because it can stand without that and two we are slowing it down and giving the wrong message! CHRISTIANITY means to be christnlike first john two six says whoever claims to him must walk as he did! Its not a choice you must live as jesus did! And are generations today are very lukewarm, as a majority, and in revalation the last chruch in the end times was laodacia and God said he wants to spit them out of his mouth, and wr live in thag time period I believe and God will come back very soon and everyoeveryone will bow and pay the price on jugement day there will be hell to pay. We should be set ablaze with the holy spirit of God let this world and tthings in this world fall and rot to nothing for they are truly meaningless forget watching tv or video games or cars or this world. God will provide and God will care but are lifestylse as a whole portray that we can live withoit God and he is just there for when I die… I truly makes me sick when I see my generation turning hypocritical, yeah I’m only 16, but quote the bible do NOT be ashamed because of your age but set am example in faith and purity! Great artical but God uses youth and we aren’t alone or scared and were willing to let go of are world and give up are lives because the cause of cheist is that great… and we as youth who are radical crazy about God wonder why aren’t the adults filled with this passion why are there eyes glazed why don’t they have the spirit of God burning in them… we don’t see them giving there life for God they are living how they want eben though they know what the bible says. So it is easy for youth to lose hope or fall in to this facade or whatever. Lucifer is making war and the frontlines are littered with the bodies of the unarmed. We must take are sword and fight!

    Reply

    • Hi Jon,
      Thank you for your passion for the Lord. I think you are quoting 1 Tim 4:12: Do not let anyone look down on you for your age, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith in purity.” Those 5 are great things to strive for. I would caution to not rush to judgment. Maybe, to quote Matthew, “the love of many will grow cold,” but many faithful followers remain in every generation. We do not look at the heart and we do not know the story of many. Blessings, you man of zeal. May God temper you for a life of service.

      Reply

      • To temper the “do’s and don’ts” issue, please let me add that, having served as a worship leader in numerous congregations, I have seen God do some far out things; things that surprised me and made me laugh. What many people don’t realize is that it isn’t always WHAT we do, but the attitude in which we do things. For example, I have often attended services at a COGIC (Church of God in Christ) congregation that has powerful services. Their type/style of worship is no different than any of the others in their denomination, and yet it greatly differs in the level of power because of the attitude in which they worship. The spirit of sincerity is so apparent that it allows God to move in that place in a way that I have not seen made manifest in any other church I’ve seen in years, especially in this local area of Los Angeles. Having a truly sincere heart is of the utmost importance. But also, obedience is the key. First of all, obedience to God’s word as revealed in the Bible. Second of all, having the ability to discern what God is specifically telling us to do in our situation. If we want to have a nightclub, coffee house, sit and sing old hymns, or whatever, we must be in tune with what God is leading us to do, and not just do things because they are popular or traditional. As many as are lead by the Spirit of the Lord, THEY shall be the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

        Reply

        • HI Sharon, Very well said! Fidelity to God’s call for your place and your time, a sincere seeking after God, resulting in a real love for others trumps everything else. I was sort of assuming those. Sort of like the remodeler assumes the cement is ok when they move walls and redo the kitchen. Thanks for your thoughts. We have a couple of folks in our church who grew up COGIC. They are good friends whose walk with Jesus blesses me.

          Reply

          • iLOVE YOUR COMMENT,IT WAS SO TRUE.
            I watch over the comments here I remember something that hit me hard. I was at the funeral of my uncle about 68 years old. As we walked out to the doors a huge sign hung over the door, It still reminds me what WE are here for, it stated very simply “AS YOU WALK OUT THIS DOOR YOU ARE WALKING INTO YOUR MISSION FIELD”.If we would walk our lives devoted to daily follow Him and talk to people each day about the Lord. So many go to church and all they do is complain. The pastor and those are expected to do all the work but the bible expects us as members of the body of Chriist to get out and do our work for HIM.If we do this maybe young and old would return to serve HIM.

            Reply

  49. I am of the opinion that these issues with youth leaving the faith are a result of the slow but consistent breakdown of the family over centuries. There are a lot of things that contribute to this. The one behind all these things (technology, materialism, addiction, divorce, etc) is Satan himself. He has strategically chipped away at the family since the fall. As the family system breaks down the support that young people used to have from family also began to breakdown and disintegrate. The times of multi-generations living together or at least in the same town are gone. Gone with that is the mentoring and the “hand raising” of our children. In fact most people don’t raise their children anymore. They allow society to do so. When you talk about the Christian, they want the church to raise their children. Christians are not sharing their faith with their kids. Faith is personal. The only way our kids can have a personal relationship with Christ himself is if we introduce them to him and walk along side them as their faith grows. We are commanded as parents to “raise them up the way they should go”. Our children are our responsibility. Churches should keep the youth programs going and add training classes and programs for the parents to develop the skills and tools to share their faith with their kids, to input into their lives in ways that make powerful impressions and allow them to meet God face to face. We can blame the church, I know that the church has a great responsibility, but ultimately it comes down to the two people who decided to have that child.

    Reply

    • Hi Carolee,
      Deuteronomy 6 and Psalm 78 speak of what you say. The first responsibility for Christian formation is the home. The church is a supplement and a trainer for the work done by parent(s) and grandparent(s).

      Thanks for your comments!

      Reply

  50. When the church and the number of people sitting on the pews, swallowing doctrine hook line and dinker is valued over true spiritual practice that encourages and support a persons unique journey to their spiritual truth, it is bound to fail. The youth of today have access to information and choices beyond our wildest imaginings, the fact that they are exercising these choices as they mature and find deeper fullfilment within spirituality rather than faith is to be expected and applauded. As a race we have evolved beyond the need for a church to “educate our simple souls”.

    Reply

    • Hi Samantha,
      Thanks for commenting. If you are saying what I think, then I think I half agree with you. I agree that dogma drinking isn’t very satisfying. The conservative church has stereotypically given people dogma without practice. The progressive church has stereotypically given practice without dogma. Both seem like one-legged guard dogs. They might make noise but can’t really get the job done.
      If what you are saying is “we are spiritual but not religious,” then we part ways. I really don’t think that hanging out in Starbucks admiring the trendy music is an advancement of any sorts. UCC minister Lilian Daniels wrote a blog post about that a few years ago. She said something along the lines of, “We find thousands of years of human wisdom boring but find ourselves fascinating? How vapid. Anyone can find beauty in a sunset. Find beauty in the hand of the one sitting next to you in a pew, join with them in prayer and then go make the world a better place together.” I haven’t read it in a couple of years but I’m sure it is google-able. It was really beautiful.

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