Unintended Consequences: How the “relevant” church and segregating youth is killing Christianity.
I recently spent six-months doing a rotation as a hospital chaplain. One day I received a page (Yes, hospitals actually still use pagers). Chaplains are generally called to the rooms of people who look ill: People gray with kidney disease, or yellow with liver failure, discouraged amputees, nervous cancer patients. In this room, however, was a strikingly attractive 23 year-old young lady sitting up cheerfully in the hospital bed, holding her infant daughter and chatting with family and friends.
Confused, I stepped outside and asked her nurse, “Why did I get paged to her room?”
“Oh, she looks fabulous. She also feels great and is asking to go home,” the nurse said.
“…And you are calling me because?” I asked in confusion.
The nurse looked me directly in the eye and said: “Because we will be disconnecting her from life support in three days and you will be doing her funeral in four.”
The young lady had taken too much Tylenol. She looked and acted fine. She even felt fine, but she was in full-blown liver failure. She was dying and couldn’t bring herself to accept the diagnosis.
Today I have the sense that we are at the same place in the church. The church may look healthy on the outside, but it has swallowed the fatal pills. The evidence is stacking up: the church is dying and, for the most part, we are refusing the diagnosis.
What evidence? Take a gander at these two shocking items:
1. 20-30 year olds attend church at 1/2 the rate of their parents and ¼ the rate of their grandparents. Think about the implication for those of us in youth ministry: Thousands of us have invested our lives in reproducing faith in the next generation and the group we were tasked with reaching left the church when they left us.
2. 61% of churched high school students graduate and never go back! (Time Magazine, 2009) Even worse: 78% to 88% of those in youth programs today will leave church, most to never return. (Lifeway, 2010) Please read those last two statistics again. Ask yourself why attending a church with nothing seems to be more effective at retaining youth than our youth programs.
We look at our youth group now and we feel good. But the youth group of today is the church of tomorrow, and study after study after study suggests that what we are building for the future is…
…empty churches.
We build big groups and count “decisions for Christ,” but the Great Commission is not to get kids to make decisions for Jesus but to make disciples for Him. We all want to make Christians for life, not just for high school. We have invested heavily in youth ministry with our lives specifically in order engage youth in the church. Why do we have such a low return on our investment?
What are we doing in our Youth Ministries that might be making people less likely to attend church as an adult?
What is the “pill” we have overdosed on? I believe it is “preference.” We have embraced the idea of market-driven youth ministry. Unfortunately, giving people what they “prefer” is a road, that once you go down it, has no end. Tim Elmore in his 2010 book entitled Generation iY calls this “the overindulged Generation.” They ask for more and more, and we give it to them. And more and more the power of God is substituted for market-driven experience. In an effort to give people something “attractive” and “relevant” we embraced novel new methods in youth ministry, that 20 years later are having a powerful shaping effect on the entire church. Here are the marks of being market-driven; Which are hallmarks of your ministry?
- Segregation. We bought into the idea that youth should be segregated from the family and the rest of the church. It started with youth rooms, and then we moved to “youth services.” We ghettoized our children! (After all, we are cooler than the older people in “big church”. And parents? Who wants their parents in their youth group?) Be honest: Have you ever thought you know more than your your student’s parents? Have you ever thought your youth group was cooler than “big church”?
- Big = effective. Big is (by definition) program driven: Less personal, lower commitment; a cultural and social thing as much as a spiritual thing. Are those the values that we actually hold?
- More programs attended = stronger disciples. The inventers of this idea, Willow Creek, in suburban Chicago, publically repudiated this several years ago. They discovered that there was no correlation between the number of meetings attended and people’s spiritual maturity. They learned the lesson. Will we?
- Christian replacementism. We developed a Christian version of everything the world offers: Christian bands, novels, schools, soccer leagues, t-shirts. We created the perfect Christian bubble.
- Cultural “relevance” over transformation.We imitated our culture’s most successful gathering places in an effort to be “relevant.” Reflect on the Sunday “experience” at most Big-box churches:
- Concert hall (worship)
- Comedy club (sermon)
- Coffee house (foyer)
And what about Transformation? Is that not missing from these models? Where is a sense of the holy?
6. Professionalization. If we do know an unbeliever, we don’t need to share Christ with them, we have pastors to do that. We invite them to something… to an “inviter” event… we invite them to our “Christian” subculture.
7. “McDonald’s-ization” vs. Contextualization: It is no longer our own vision and passion. We purchase it as a package from today’s biggest going mega-church. It is almost like a “franchise fee” from Saddleback or The Resurgence.
8. Attractional over missional. When our greatest value is butts in pews we embrace attractional models. Rather than embrace Paul’s Ephesians 4 model in which ministry gifts are given by God to “equip the saints” we have developed a top-down hierarchy aimed at filling buildings. This leaves us with Sunday “church” an experience for the unchurched, with God-centered worship of the Almighty relegated to the periphery and leading of the body of Christ to greater spiritual power and sanctification to untrained small group leaders.
Does not all of this work together as a package to leave us with churches full of empty people?
Here is an example: Your church. Does it look like this?
If you look closely, you will see the photo on the right is of a nightclub, rather than a church. Can you see what I mean about “relevance” and the clean Christian version of what the world offers? Your youth room is a pretty good indicator of what your church will look like 15 years from now. Because of the principle “What you win them with, you win them to,” your students today will expect their adult church to look like your youth room.
In summary, “Market Driven” youth ministry gave students a youth group that looks like them, does activities they prefer, sings songs they like, and preaches on subjects they are interested in. It is a ministry of preference. And, with their feet, young adults are saying…
…“Bye-bye.”
What might we do instead? The opposite of giving people what they want is to give them what they need. The beauty is that Christianity already knows how to do this.
Once upon a time our faith thrived in a non-Christian empire. It took less than 300 years for 11 scared dudes to take over the most powerful empire the world had ever seen. How did they do it? Where we have opted for a relevant, homogenously grouped, segregated, attractional professionalized model; the early church did it with a multi-ethnic, multi-social class, seeker INsensitive church. Worship was filled with sacrament and symbol. It engaged the believing community in the Christian narrative. This worship was so God-directed and insider-shaping that in the early church non-Christians were asked to leave the building before communion! With what effect? From that fellowship of the transformed, the church went out to the highways and byways loving and serving the least, last and lost. In that body of Christ, Christians shared their faith with Romans 1:16 boldness, served the poor with abandon, fed widows and took orphans into their homes. The world noticed. We went to them in love rather than invited them to our event.
The beauty of where we are at today is that, unlike the girl in the hospital bed, our fatal pill could still be rejected. It is not too late. We can leave the culture-centered models we have been following for more Christ-centered ones. More ancient ones. More rooted ones. And the most beautiful thing is that students actually enjoy them.
In the Episcopal Church that I grew up in, children were pulled out of the service after the Gospel reading (some people wanted them to be pulled out before the readings entirely, but those who thought the children should hear the Gospel won out) for Sunday school. Whether they were brought back down for Communion or not was entirely up to their teacher. One result of this, even in the cases where they were brought back for Communion, is that they did not hear any of the priest’s prayers leading up to the Sacrament, and got no understanding of their own Church’s views on the Body of Christ.
Unfortunately, the opposite road is problematic as well. We see among some the view that the Liturgy or Mass is all the religious education that a child needs, and that education beyond that should happen entirely at the home. This results too often in lay people who do not know a thing about their faith. I once heard a story of a person of Greek ancestry who, although she didn’t know Greek, had always only heard the Divine Liturgy done in Greek. On one occasion, she was visiting a parish that did the Liturgy in English for the first time. The priest’s prayers at the anaphora were shocking to her; she had no idea about her own Church’s views on the Eucharist.
Now, that is not only a problem of language. For centuries, the Catholic Church did the Mass only in Latin, yet the faithful still knew their Church’s views on the Eucharist (I could be wrong about that). The problem is, in part, a lack of moderation. Yes, the Mass/Liturgy educates, and children should be present for the whole thing. But there’s also a need for us to educate children in the Church apart from the service, so that they will understand what is going on in the service. This can’t only happen at home, because often the parents don’t know anything more than their children about their faith. We need, in part, to ditch the idea that it’s a problem if it’s after noon and we’re still at Church. Why not wait until after the service is done, and have education (both for adults and for children) then? I’ve seen this done at some Churches, and it has seemed to work well. We also need to revive the model according to which at least some of our religious education happens in one-on-one relationships with clergy which are genuinely pastoral and confessional.
Hi Jeremy,
Good stuff there! It is almost as if you have read my follow-up posts on “Life after ‘Cool Church’” that are on my computer and waiting to be sent.
I agree with Samuel and Age. Attend a traditional Orthodox Christian service and see if it doesn’t feel like the home for which the soul has been searching.
Hi Melanie,
I have been to services in an Orthodox church twice and really appreciated them. I like Morning Prayer as a prelude to the Divine Liturgy, and “The Doors! The Doors! is just awesome. Some of the Greek cultural attachments (like the service being mostly in Greek) create a cultural barrier for those of us who are not Greek. It was odd that when the service of the catechumens started the church was 2/3 empty but was full by the time the Eucharist was consecrated…it seemed reminiscent of the trendy church I had been to in which people wandered in 10 minutes late with Starbucks. No place is perfect, but Orthodoxy has much to recommend it in my book.
I agree, but one aspect that was not discussed: the apathy of churches towards “30-somethings” who are the immediate future of the church. In the parish our family attends, there have been several “adults only” events where young children were not welcome, and no child care was provided. While the intent may not have been to drive young families away, it is exactly what such attitude is doing.
While I agree that teens are important, there is another generation between them and today’s church leaders — it is the Generation X’ers that will be the next to take over the reins, should there be any left. The Episcopal Church (of which I am member) has a major problem with listening to the 30-somethings, who seem to want more traditional services and theology, and not what is “hip” and “cool”.
Hi TJ,
Thanks for the comment. You obviously have a bonafide gripe with the leadership of your parish. I believe you are commenting on my post about “why mega-church works for 35 yr olds not 25 yr olds”. In that post I am not arguing that teens are more important than anyone else, but that the segregationist youth ministry sets up a selfish dynamic in a church. In the Episcopal Church we have the opposite dynamic at play: We have the selfish over 60 crowd that thinks the church exists for them. The evangelicals, to their credit, are remaking their churches, rewriting their music, and retooling their sermons because they are convinced that the Good News of Jesus is so good that they will go to any length to contextualize it. I do not believe that solution is wise- but they get kudos for motive and effort. We have the opposite problem. We are willing to go to NO lengths to accommodate others. Archbishop Temple told us 80 years ago that “the church is the one institution that exists for the benefit of those who are not yet members.” We would do well to remember that they next time we plan an adult only get together or a worship service that assumes that our Bach music is the only way we can communicate beauty.
Well, past being an X’er, I have children who are in that generation of people, I left the Catholic Church building in my 30′s for many of the reasons you mentioned. I would get the “tsk’ing” from older women behind me when my children would act up slightly, I would get told that I could come to church or mass at a certain time, but children were not allowed. What happened to “Suffer the little ones unto me” our church had no cry room, no babysitting service, nothing. My husband worked most Sundays and Saturdays so weekend mass didn’t work for us. IMHO the Catholic church is not family friendly, all the while, being pro life and pretending to be for families.
“Tsking” is never kind. Why are we so weird about church? Instead of welcoming people to our church, those of us in the mainline seem set on creating barriers. I have a young adult friend who visited an Episcopal church and was told by a lady, “Young woman, next time you come here wear more clothes!” She is a great young lady who loves God…and was dressed just like her other friends going to church. Not a great first impression, and, no, she didn’t go back. The evangelical big-boxes are very clear that they are there to welcome the new. They do a much better job than us in that regard.
As a teenager in the sixties I embraced the “Jesus Movement”. I was a musician in-the-making. “Rock-N-Roll Jesus became my thing. My dad, a Baptist minister, fought constantly about this. I just thought he was out of touch.
Over the ensuing years I discovered that path did not fulfilled my spiritual needs and returned to more traditional worship. Shortly before my dad died I asked why he had been so opposed to my youthful ambitions. He said, “Sacred music should appeal to the soul of the man and not the sole of his foot.”
Thank you for your message. My dad would be proud.
I am chuckling at the “soul” not the “foot.”
I am really not wedded to instrumentation. I would argue that the power is in the ancient liturgical shape, content and scriptural words and narrative – artfully adapted to speak to people in today’s culture. For some that would be an onramp, for some it would be their primary worship life.
Cathy, do you mean adults meeting in homes like a youth group to study the bible, pray, talk, ask questions or answer questions or? I’m not understanding what your asking
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This is a great critique of where we are at currently in ‘church world’.
Man has problems, God offers answers. Many years ago, when i was asking God about the fellowship i was attending, I was shown a vision of two trees. One was meagerly fruited and a few people gathered beneath its gnarled branches, looking at sparse, and rotten fruit, out of reach, while another tree appeared, this one abundant, heavy with fruit, yielding its fruit to the throng gathered beneath its branches, looking at the beautiful ripe fruit with eager anticipation and joy.
One is God’s intention, the other the all too prevalent “reality”. Another wision shown me about that time, was of a might Oak Tree – huge – and I knew the trunk was Catholicism, the branches the various denominations, branches and offshoots, while at the top of the tree was a tiny green shoot, reaching for the Sun. I was a “new believer” then looking for direction I was not getting at Church. I wanted to hear from God. I heard that this shoot was me, a budding believer, and that I should always stay “green and growing” and NEVER BECOME WOODEN – always be alive – wood is DEAD! It is the sap which giveth the Life of the Tree, or as you know it, the Tree of Life, which is in the MIDST of the GARDEN which is YOU. The tree of knowledge of good AND evil is the flesh, the outer man, the body which is dying. The INNER MAN, the hidden man of the heart, and your “nearest neighbor” who you are to love as yourself, which is Christ in you, which is your hope of glory, and your LIFE…
The way to this tree is guarded by a messenger with a SWORD and the message is, you ust be circumcised in heart to enter in to the kingdom realm, but it is the Pharisees with their burdensome and bogus rules which bar the way to the WAY OF LIFE. They tie up heavy burdens and grievous to be borne which they themselves will not carry – and expect others to do so – oh, and don’t forget to tithe and if you (edited by moderator) , well double tithe…the church is still selling indulgences – they just call it something more sophisticated
Many years after these visions, i was given to see the same :”Family Tree” of Christianity, as it began to blossom, like suddenly to bear fruit and fruit in a massive and overwhelming abundance – it was like LIFE broke out and the tree looking resplendent, and then there came from heaven a MIGHTY SHOUT, “COME UP HERE” and the mighty tree convulsed and released the fruit, and in each gorgeous flower there was a “spore” (I heard spore) and each spore was a soul&spirit in union, and they all were as One Body and One Mind and One Accord and the whole myriad mass of them were caught up to heaven to heaven to be with Jesus.
Then I heard, “Look again” and there was the mighty tree, but now reduced to a lifeless caricature with no leaves nor any fruit – it was utterly dead and LIFE-less. The Life of the Tree had left.
The Church has to die, so to be reborn as that Body, not made with hands, forever in the heavens. New Jerusalem will replace Old Jerusalem. There is a reason why many are leaving is not so much the lies that they are hearing out there, but the lie they were living in Babylon.
To archetype the Church as a beautiful young woman who has been fed freely available drugs for her pain is an interesting analogy given what Marx said about the drug like attributes of religion – and also that the companies which make, market and mooch their drugs have no regard as to what their clients do with the “remedies” they produce, as long as the bottom line is not threatened. The church is not a beautiful young woman who won’t accept her diagnosis, that is more an image of her vanity as a rebellious, murderous old whore riding the back of a dragon as she lays waste to her enemies ad feeds her children MacDonald’s. Of course she has to die, but it won’t be Paracetamol, it will be POWER-A-SEAT-ON-HIGH! The kids will come back, when they are compelled to, along with all those in the highways and byways.
Read your book – God will strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep, and His Army the Assyrians will cut loose an the whole thing will get crazy but out of it all, God will raise up a Gideon’s army of Ministers of Fire who will lead the people back to God but the multiplied millions, but first Babylon must fall, and her fall shall be great, and many will weep for her, but I will rejoice! It is really this simple – manifest Jesus in front of them and you have done all you can and need to, for this is the Truth, that LIGHT has come into the world, but that MEN prefer the darkness of their own opinions. The Great Apostasy is imply having your own opinion instead of the mind of Christ, and this is what Paul is talking about – by encouraging people to have their own opinion instead of the Mind of Christ, chaos and degeneration is the guaranteed outcome. The devil does not only attack from outside the church, but from within, and this is the more sinister and subtle. Introduce people to the real Jesus, help them to know Him, and the rest is all persecution, affliction, suffering for Christ, laying down your life for others, etc. Give them a “Bless Me Jesus Toy” and they will always be childish instead of childlike. The church ha dropped the ball simply because the devil wrote so many of your doctrines which makes the kids easy pickins’. And this is why GOD will judge the church.
Ian you have much to say. Near the end you write, “Give them the real Jesus.” I agree. The difficulty is that we have so much disagreement about that. God help us all as we seek that Jesus and allow him to conform us to his image -rather than the other way around.
Also, I did not run your other comment since it appears to be your translation of 1 Timothy- which is really off the topic of being a response to the original post.
Thanks for commenting.
amen, We come to be entertained ,follow mans rules, formalities, not what we are told to follow, Christ, not mans thinking. We hear the Christ Saying this do REMEMBER ME and they sang hymns and prayed, broke bread and drank the wine. those were the simbles He gave us. If We would go to church, sit down and prepare our hearts to worship him we wouldnt have time to tell some one what they were wearing wasnt correct style. She should have told that lady who made that comment,needed to be spoken to. if WE go to worship, remember Christ in what HE did for us He was spit upon, curcified , suffered on the cross, shed his blood to wash us white as snow and he rose again all for the sins of those that accept Him as their Lord. doesnt that set are hearts on worship and praising Him? We need our children with us. or rotate Sundays with your spouse Till The children will behave like they should. We are given GIFTS from the Holy Spirit everyone of us that believes. the gifts are allways written in plural. The church needs to learn the gifts are to be used in the church,but by mans rules are not. We make our own rules and thats what spoils the fruit. We count how many count heads, but forget those that are’nt there. Have you ever tried the ALPHA PROGRAM, it came out of the Angelian Church. May God bless you and our country. God Gave 10 comandments man couldnt follow them, so man made millions of rules and really confued us. co
Hi Ralph. I hear great things about Alpha. Thanks for inserting it into the conversation.
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Thank you for affirming what I’ve been concerned about for a long time. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey, I’ll offer my opinion. It’s my feeling that what the youth really want is the Word; they don’t need it watered down. It just needs to be presented in an interesting (not gimmicky) fashion without judgment and with complete acceptance of their questions and problems. Although I like the melodies and some of the words of the new songs, sometimes I have to search to find mention of Christ, the Good News, the gospel, or the heavenly Father. The words could be words to a love song or else they’re what another old friend calls “7-Eleven” songs–seven words sung eleven times. I’ve worked with young people over 40 years and find them receptive to challenging messages presented in palatable bites. Your blog is encouraging.
Hi Sarah,
Thanks for joining the conversation. I too find that students want to connect with their creator. They are designed for life with God and find their hearts home in him.
I am at a conference and missed the high school group that meets in our living room, but my wife talked about how students were eagerly participating in prayer, in worship through song, in reporting on efforts to share faith with their peers, how supportive their community was with one another and their earnest attention at the Bible study led by a college leader. We are working our way through Genesis this fall and kids are very engaged.
So I agree with you completely: God’s Word, opened consistently, taught winsomely, and applied gracefully by a trusted adult friend is why students come.
To be honest, I don’t think that most adults are that different than the youth in our worship. We all just want to know what Christ is teaching us, love, prayer, guidance, acceptance, etc. It is just that you are involved with Youth Ministeries, and people are people young and old. It would be great teachings if there were people within the churches who “got and understood” this need.
Can you point me in the direction of a group such as this anywhere in the realm of
Christian churches who offers such things for “adult” Christians?
Hi Cathy. Maybe. Can you be a bit more specific in terms of what you are looking for?
When I went to Catholic School and HS and through the church, I never heard that the “catholic” God was a god of Love. It might have been fire and brimstone. As a young adult, I went to Baptist College, and the bible was opened up to me, and through that msg, I finally heard that God —no matter what denomination was a God of love and caring for his people. Over time, bringing up my own children, and teaching in a Catholic school, the msg didn’t fit what we were required to teach. It all seemed so hypocritical that I gave up on it. I have found more caring, concern and real believers in non-denominational churches in the last 10 years than any church I have been in. In James, it tells us not to judge people by their clothes, money, etc. To treat all
equally as Jesus would have done. Yet in the Catholic Churches I have been a member of they are only concerned about the amount of $$ you put in the collection plate, working or helping with events is not considered good enough, the priest looks over your shoulder when he “greets” you after Mass….to see who is behind you with more $$. I am looking for a church community who cares about their members money or not; who values the person not their wallet; who preaches as Jesus did with love and compassion. Right now, in my area,I do not believe this exists. Thank you
Hi Cathy,
It sounds as if you have had a positive experience of being loved and accepted in a non-denominational church. Good for them and good for you!
I do know people who joined the Catholic church and say nearly identical things – that the pastor gave them his personal cell phone number because they made a 7 figure gift, that the Catholic church helped them have real community, that the Catholic church taught them about God’s love and how it should be given to others in service. I think the message is that in different places we find different ethos’. The trick, for me, is to become such a vital part of the faith community I am a part of that I influence it for the positive: that because of my presence it would be more humane, more scriptural, more in love with God. And that I let others there have the same influence on me.
Are you in a rural area? Most towns of medium size have a variety of churches. I invite you to ours if you are ever in Phoenix.
“Even worse: 78% to 88% of those in youth programs today will leave church, most to never return. (Lifeway, 2010)” – Could you please provide specific information regarding the source for this information? I and several others would like to read it.
Thank you.
Hi Wes,
It was a Lifeway study. I found it online. That article was written for an urban youth worker’s institute training keynote address 4 yrs ago. Unfortunately all of my data was fried in a computer crash 2 1/2 yrs ago. Lifeway has some fascinating research. The most significant one was the deal in which they chatted the decline in ability of southern baptists to share their faith with others by generation. It has fallen in half every generation since the depression.
Thank you for the quick response – I have passed your comment along.
Blessings,
Wes
Thanks, Wes. Where are your people from?
We were having a discussion in a private Facebook group for pastors and church leaders I am apart of, and that statistic came up. I just noticed you mentioned the article that stat is taken from was written for an event 4 years ago. The citation says the 78 to 88% figure is from 2010 – should that instead be 2008?
Hi Wes. Like I say, article was from a hard copy if my seminar notes. I will have to check and see what I still have. The data is not exactly equivalent as it is from different sources, but he point is one that all youth pastors are acknowledging at this point. You might ask the mega-church folks in your group how many of their youth people have traded sr high for the jr high group. That is pretty fascinating to watch the sr people not want to be a part of sr high as that gets harder.
Ed Stetzer is the President of Lifeway Research. He has a unique web site called http://www.edstetzer.com. His twitter name is @edstetzer. He can talk through all their data backwards and forwards. He should be easy to find, and I would think that he would be happy to answer any questions you have.
I grew up in church. My dad was a pastor.
I went to christian college and ministry school even.
Now I dont even believe that the bible is true.
It feels like when I finally detoxed from the christian culture, I realized how weird it all is.
I srarted actually making friends with people who my parents tild me not too.
Girls who dressed inmodestly, boys who were gay, people who drank all the time.
The funny thing is, I fell in love with these people.
They are my best friends. They are honest amd real. They dont hide what they do. I can be kyself around them.
Not so around church people.
All they care about is if im doing what the bible says.
Also, the who story of salvation and the fall of man is (edited) up.
God, apparently creates man so he will be worshiped.
Then he places them in a garden and basically says, “dont think of a pink elephant.”
So of course, they think of a pink elephant.
So now they disobeyed and he blames them, not himself.
So everyone is doomed now.
Then later God destroys while cities because of gays and sexual problems.
Then later he decides to send Jesus to pay for the sins of the world.
So now Jesus paid. Its all good.
Well actually, its not until you repent and ask Jesus to forgive you. Come into your heart. Whatever.
So ultimately, God says accept me or burn.
The gospel is not love. It is fear, guilt and manipulation.
It seems to me, love would say, “hey I love you and require nothibg from you. ”
Gay? I love you
Buddist? I love you.
Why is it I can accept people who are different, offensive, or different rwligions.
Why can I, an imperfect person, love my friends without forcing them or guilting them into a relationship with me?
God…is so perfect…yet is so manipulative and selgish.
Now. I KNOW i dont talk to that God.
My God loves. That is it.
I dont give a (edited) if my friend is gay. As long as they are healthy and happy.
My God loves and accepts my gay friends even more than i do.
The Bible paints God like a sadistic evil being.
That is because, it was written by people.
Christianity is no different than any other relihion.
Christianity turns off peoples brains.
It makes idiots out of smart people.
That is why churches are failing .
People want a real relationship with God.
They want hope.
Jenn, This is hard to write. Most things you write could or are true. I believe GOD loves every one, including you. You look at the people that say Christians dont like or hate them for their life style. The difference between a sinner and a Christian is in accepting Christ, Gods gift to man to be forgiven of their sins by accepting Him as their Saviour. A Christian still sins but God has forgiven them, thats the only diference between a unbeliever and a Christian. We all fall short when it comes to being able to follow Gods commandments, only Christ was sinless, we are not. Once we are believers we should atempt to follow RULES.Thats our choice, God allows us to make that choice, the GIFT of God is eternal life and it’s free, a gift waiting for you to accept. I hope you understand how much He loves you no matter what your life style.
Hello Ralph,
Thank you for trying to bring clarity and grace.
blessings,
Matt
Hello Jenn,
Thank you for adding your voice to this dialogue. I hear much pain in your writing and affirm your desire to have answers that bring life and joy rather than hostility and condemnation. Christian sub-culture can be controlling, full of mixed messages and downright bizarre.
I can relate with your enjoyment of people who choose not to live a facade. It is the spirit of our age to value sincerity above all else. I would mention, however, that sincerity is a poor substitute for truth. I have a friend who is an ASU Philosophy professor. He tells me that he grades papers every day filled with incorrect answers sincerely given.
I hear in your statements the idea that religions are all the same and all destructive. I would, in the gentlest manner possible, ask you to think about that question objectively. Hospitals, ending slavery, literacy were all the products of Christians in this millennium. In the last were great advances in science, medicine and mathematics from Muslim scholars. Many scientific discoveries were made by religious people seeking to understand “how God did it.” I have several friends who hold prestigious east coast degrees in hard sciences who tell me that the percentage of religious people in the sciences is actually higher than in the culture at large in my home state of Arizona.
In spite of the bad behavior of individual Christians, churches, and institutions who are fearful that their world is spinning out of control, I do think actually that Christianity as given in the New Testament (rather than what you may have experienced in church and Christian schools) is unique from other religions. It alone leaves us all, regardless of issue, wealth, or position, on equal grounds before God. Love and redemption is offered as a gift given rather than a work to be earned, and salvation is offered to all freely and equally without regard to race, creed or orientation.
Christian treatment of the LGBT community has been very bad. Many churches are welcoming to LGBT persons, a growing number are affirming. Whether or not that is the proper response, is beyond the scope of a reply, but it is a change and it is a change wrought by people seeking to communicate God’s grace and hospitality to ALL humanity.
I wonder, Jenn, what basis you have for your statement of God’s love toward all people if you throw out the Scriptures as your authority? It seems to me that leaves individuals as the source of authority. History is replete with injustices committed by individuals who set themselves up as authority. That list is far more frightening than anything committed by Christians getting it wrong, as it describes every dictator and every pogrom.
You are in my prayers, prayers for a growing closeness with your family and friends and a life filled with love and God’s presence.
blessings,
Matt